Comment(s) on this article

Dave Jul 23, 2009

Has anyone else noticed funny goings on at full tilt poker.
In tournements will a low seats that suddenly fill up after you have entered and you continously get knocked out on the river with people calling an all in with nothing and hitting you aon the river.
Or cash games , first hand pair of nines 3 players and opponent has pair of queens...bang goes $50 ok bad luck but all this in one day within a few hands I dont think so...something is very wrong and crooked at full tilt, I very much doubt if any online poker site is safe.
I am not a beginner, playued for 4 years and play regular in casinos in the uk, you just know when things are wrong.
Before long the poker world may come crashing down unless things are really improved online.

jim Jul 28, 2009

i dont mind getting beat but for months now every time. beat on rivr while i had best hand going in. im 55 yrs of playing poker and i know when somthing is not right. go all in with nothing & pull a win out of there ***. ive had some wins i should not have won but not like the last 2 months against me. it just is not right somthing is going on

Jeokim Aug 1, 2009

I know there are the nay Sayers out there... but In my mind I know for SURE that there is a MASSIVE amount of thievery going on at these sights. I could care less about a little money, but I just can not believe some of the miracle hands that routinely happen. It's just not how real poker happens and if someone thinks it's always fair they need a reality check. We live in a filthy greedy world and those in control of online gambling are surely dirty thieves paying off whoever they have to in order to make sure they can continue to ROB the general public.

Deborah Lowe Aug 3, 2009

I just went online to see if there is any info out there about cheating on fulltilt. I too noticed an ugly pattern of miracle rivers on a consistent basis and rag hands beating premium hands on an extremely guaranteed basis. It's unfortunate, because these people can make more than enough money running an honest site. And those famous poker players who sponsor these sites should be ashamed.

Kilgore Trout Aug 4, 2009

Jeokin, Deborah, Jim, Dave... everyone else here.

I just don't understand how all of you can be so very "sure" that sites, such as Full Tilt are rigged. How many hands do you guys play online a week? How many hands do you play live?

What's your proof? Have you tracked every hand you've seen on the sites and run a scatter plot of the results? Or are you just going by "feel"?

I find it funny that I have never heard any serious online player (players who play hundreds of thousands of hands a year) say that the site is rigged.

Typically it's the older generation of live players who believe it. Here's the scoop:

You're seeing a minimum of twice as many hands online as your are live, this means you'll see bad hands beating good hands a minimum of twice as many times per session.

You're playing against players who are playing a very loose aggressive approach, and value betting very light. They fold their junk when you have them beat, so you win many small pots with your big hands, but they call or raise when their junk hits. So you lose big pots against junk hands.

The software is 100% random, in fact the random number generators used to "shuffle" the decks on these sites are tested and approved by 3rd party companies. Since these companies have absolutely nothing to gain, and everything to lose, by putting their stamp an an illegitimate product, you can rest assured that these guys (who are the best in the world at what they do), are fully confident that the sites are legit.

If you don't believe it, you can go look at some of the non-professionals who track stats and numbers for poker sites.

This article has nothing to do with bad software, or Full Tilt cheating players, it has to do with one player letting a well known pro play on his account to finish a tournament.

Cheating online poker rooms is a legend much like the Loch Ness Monster. People choose to believe, and come up with various sorts of dubious "proof". Just because you see a wave with no wind, doesn't mean there's a monster.

Just because you get aces cracked twice in a row, doesn't mean everyone but you is cheating.

Jman Aug 4, 2009

I have been playing online for 5 years and have noticed the same trends mentioned here. Full tilt poker and Poker Stars are both starting to cheat.

somethingaintright Aug 6, 2009

To all the people who say "oh why don't you track the numbers and you'll see it all works out even" and "they have too much to lose to be cheating," seriously you need to grow up and you need a reality check. When millions if not billions of dollars are involved people will say and do anything to get their hands on it.

I have played 10's if not 100's of thousands of hours of poker both live and online. Off of my skill alone I usually make it deep or cash in most of the tourneys I enter. But as soon as it gets to the BIGGER payouts, like 1st 2nd and 3rd..... it's like clockwork!!! I get beat by Runner Runner Straights, Runner Runner Flushes, Runner Runner Two Pair...you name it it happens EVERY TIME. I end up making a little money above my buy in and nothing else. While the "lucky" ones get the monster payouts.

When people say "oh it's not in their best interests to be cheating players", you just sound like an idiot. Why WOULDN'T it be in their best interests to have shill/house players cheat to take the majority of the big tourney payouts? That's millions if not billions more for them!!! We will never know what's really going on but it burns me when people try to act as if we don't live in an immoral and corrupt world where ANYTHING can happen and USUALLY DOES in the name of MONEY AND GREED.

Kilgore Trout Aug 6, 2009

So you're telling me that Poker Stars randomly chose random players to give all the wins to? Do you realize that there are countless unknown players, who make millions each year online?

Some players win multiple MTT's a week, yet the poker site is taking no cut from these players. If they're not taking the money, and the same good players keep winning... well that sounds just about right now doesn't it?

Tommy Aug 7, 2009

Please all sites want to put peoples heart at ease.These sites are made ,and make there money of off bad play,and bad beats.Half the real pros don't even want to play on here.With all the people caught cheating already,just shows that it can, and will continue to be done.Where there is gambling and money to be made, there will be cheating.Plan and simple.To think that the worst hand wins a majority of the time on these internet sites,what you think that's just poker??Yea if that's the case then pros with skill wouldn't be winning.For people to think that cheating does not occur,in online poker rooms.Your either stupid,or one of the ones doing the cheating.

dan lund Aug 16, 2009

Ok, so its a natural thing when catching a bad beat that someone else is cheating. Getting called all in when they have nothing, and getting snafooed on the river only means a donk caught a lucky hand. Unless, of course, you think FTP places money draining bots that arent real people... this I feel is a bit out of reach. Dont forget, there are very very rich Pro players putting their names in association with these companies and I doubt very seriously that they would risk it all to rake a few hundred bucks here and there. Silly....

KnotNELikeB4 Aug 20, 2009

It will be interesting when a class action suit is brought against Full Tilt and JokerStars. The term 'bad beat' implies that it is unusual. I have come to expect the 'bad beat' now. It is routine on Full Tilt. It seems as though every game I am in, somebody who has steady losses all of a sudden hits all their trash cards. Mind you, this is not the 'occaisional' freakish game. This has become quite regular. Sooner or later someone will start a website to register for a class action suit against these thieves.

brenda Aug 27, 2009

My spouse has been playing for 25 years mostly in the pokerrooms until online betting came along and about 5 yrs ago he started playing there. Still plays the card rooms at the boat and vegas etc.Plays a MINIMUM of 50 hours a week on line and has consistently been feeling like there is something else going on out there. Loosing is part of gambling but its gotten to weird all the bs hands that are notoriously beating good players with what ARE good hands. Its gotten to be to much lately with the way these hands go down on the screen. I get that on line playing is looser-- you dont have to embarrass yourself by betting a crap hand because nobody can see you. And the Reality generation thats caught wind and play cards like they live life.... i wont say anymore there.But this is too obvious lately--- at LEAST the last 5 months. Full tilt was like this and now pokerstars is making the same pattern .I think its creepy. and messed up-- like the world is anymore. Seems like nothing or nobody can be trusted. Morals are all around messed up(look at the stupid stuff on tv)anything goes. So dont gamble. Too bad as he use to make a good living at it and it was from knowing the game( which of course includes taking your losses.). Didnt do it by being a cocky smart____ or by cheating.

Danny Aug 27, 2009

Not going to send a long opinion....but I've watched and learned. These sites are so rigged. I've on lost money just to watch. It's been all the same. They put "Bots" into slots....and they kill you. Maybe let you win until later...sometimes more than one.....then get you in the end.... and you finish just out of the money. No hard feelings, just fact. It's not the money to me. It's what's right. I spent money to find out. Government is now on this.

moron Aug 28, 2009

Unfrotunately the task force the government intends to use for this project is busy hunting werewolves in the sewers of new-york.

That's why your toilet backs up sometimes, it's the werewolves. I've spent a lot of time looking at toilets, and I know how they're supposed to flush.

only reasonable option = werewolves

joe Sep 3, 2009

Well i had few "weird" things there.
Like playing with someone that looked like he knew my pocket cards...
once i had pocket 10,10
flop was 2,4,ace and he bet like crazy im calling. turn was 7, he continue betting. river was 10 and he checks. i bet and he folds...
this is more then weird....
i think some people have a way to see your pocket cards.
I followed the guy to all the rooms he played in (you can press ctrl-f and the site will tell you where a player currently plays), and he always seems to know when to fold, never loosing a hand in a showdown unless its a check...
someone else had that happening ?

PokerKirk Sep 4, 2009

I just started reading about online poker cheating. I recently stopped playing on Full Tilt because I kept losing money when other players (mostly in tournaments) would hit monster hands on the river. Similiar to some other comments here and -- since I have played on other sites -- it just feels like there is something "creepy" about Full Tilt. I can't explain it but after playing 20+ years in brick and mortar card rooms, Full Tilt does not even remotely resemble live poker. Anyone else feel this way?

JohnW Sep 6, 2009

Everytime someone comes up with a reason full tilt is cheating some full tilt bot says where the proof . Well watch 60 min they have the info coming soon. Yes fulltilt is fixing games stupid. they are owned by the same co. as Absolute poker caught already the are also the same as UB also caught. and yes 2 pros have been kicked off fulltilt for cheating. Soon it will be banned and all youn stupid bots who think your good going all in 2,3 vs AAv and winning its your fault your not good just stupid. Full tilt ows close to 1 billion to the player cheated and the canadia gov knows and wont stop them. so cash out soon your money will be gone soon.

Kilgore Trout Sep 7, 2009

Johnw you can't just make things up, Full tilt and AB are owned by completely different people, the pros who got kicked for cheating had nothing to do with "cheating" as you're saying, Brian Townsend was playing regular poker on a different username than his own, that's it.

Also, no bots are winning in the high stakes poker world.

You speak lies.

JohnW Sep 7, 2009

Kilgore

Your a fool Full Tilt, Absolute poker And UB are owned buy the same Indian Tribe out of
Canada its a fact ask full tilt if they will tell the truth. Your just as bad as the people who work for full tilt. By the way do you work for Full tilt?
They have been busted and 60 min is goning to tell all in Sept.

By the way according to full tilt own rules having 2 accounts on there site is cheating.
So how much do you make working for full tilt?

There are also 3 people who have admitted cheating on full tilt. So get your facts straight before you speek. Unless you work for fulltilt.
Then keep the company line donk

RG Sep 7, 2009

I've never understood how anyone trusts an online gambling site in the first place. The only use I have for Full Tilt is that they sponsor Poker After Dark, which is good for a few laughs at 2am.

Kilgore Trout Sep 8, 2009

JohnW,

You have your facts terribly mixed up. Firstly, I don't work for FTP.

FTP is not owned by The Alexander First Nation Tribe, they are just in charge of hosting and moderating some servers (not the actual poker servers).

FTP is owned in reality by a bunch of professional poker players. On paper, they own the software and liscence it's use to an offshore company, of which they have no association. This is how they can live and operate in USA.

The actual servers are run in countries with no laws against it, like St Kitts, or Costa Rica.

You keep talking about 60 min, do you mean last years episode they did on the AP scandal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfhQO4DzLag

Now, multi accounting. Having 2 accounts is against FTP rules, this is so one player can't take two seats at the same table. Brian Townsend, a red name pro who "cheated" was playing on one account at a time, only it wasn't his official account (It was a friends account).

He wasn't "cheating" he was just breaking FTP rules.

The only people who have ever "cheated" on FTP have been people who have multi accounted.

You need to get your facts straight first if you're going to rap off, don't be a clown.

John w Sep 8, 2009

Kilgore,

Typical of full tilt to put another liar on a web site to peddle there lies. FULL TILT IS OWNED AND OPERATED BY THE SAME COMPANY AS ABSOLUTE POKER AND UB'
So peddle your lies someware else. Your bull isn't going to fly here. Full tilt is a fixed site period and 60 min is running a show about everything I said so go back to fixing games. And tell us how much does full tilt pay you. Typical stupid ass.

JohnW Sep 8, 2009

P.S. Kilgore

By the way if you don't work for full tilf why are you on every site defending them?

Like I said how much do you make from full tilt? You have no creditability on here.

E Elliott Sep 8, 2009

Please forgive me, but this is the first time for me to try to get the attention of a public services. The reason is quite urgent. Why, to warn the general online poker playing public of the dangers of being cheated while playing for money on Internet poker sites. These sites are an invisible Haven for criminal activities. The criminal activities at online poker sites, once opened up, will make the following late famous American and Canadian fraud cases of Bernard L. Madoff and Earl Jones, appear as just a small nursery rhyme.

Explanation in simple language:
Computers don't pick cards by themselves, it takes man-made software to pick the cards. Therefore the software can be altered by the software tech, to deliver the cards, he or she wants. The systems to pick cards is called RNG (Random Number Generator).

Plus more: To move the cards from the RNG to the table, require more man-made software. By hacking or programming into the software the following simple open "if" "then" "else" statement would make the on duty staff tech the overall in control of cards and wealth. Also with the ability to program, or hack, the event can be camouflaged within the computer's logs so it cannot be discovered.

STATEMENT;
{
$input-from-computer-tech-on-duty = /enter table number;
$input_from_F10_key = /enter what card is required to complete your hand;
if $card from RNG equals $inputfromF10key;
then "sent to the table at $input-from-computer-tech-on-duty;"
else "delete and draw another card from the RNG";
}
END;

Following, another prime example of card tampering. By playing on site, your IP address is submitted to the server. If any slight problems arise between player and site. The site can blackball the player.

Background of games played;
Between two players, playing 10 separate 90 player's tournaments for money from the same IP address, which is recorded by the popular poker site.
Total number of single cards received as "pocket cards" from the server during the 20 games of
tournaments = 2236 single cards.
Following in rank, is the percentage of each individual card received.

2 = 229 times 10.27% of the total
7 = 192 times 8.58% of the total
8 = 184 times 8.24% of the total
Q = 180 times 8.07% of the total
T = 174 times 7.78% of the total
K = 168 times 7.51% of the total
5 = 167 times 7.46% of the total
6 = 166 times 7.42% of the total
A = 165 times 7.37% of the total
3 = 163 times 7.28% of the total
4 = 161 times 7.20% of the total
J = 146 times 6.52% of the total
9 = 141 times 6.30% of the total

The average percentage is 100%/13 cards (1 suit) = 7.69%

Question, if the RNG is as random as advertised, then why not a more even percentage?
It my opinion, Queens where received at a higher rate than considered normal, but Queens don't beat Kings and Aces. In fact this could be a trap. The higher cards (Aces, Kings) where delivered to accomplices or BOT in the tournaments. Leaving the rest to lose their money.

The on duty staff tech sitting at his or hers workstation, can download a BOT (poker playing robot software)from the Internet, enter it into an on site poker game. And by sitting at the workstation, using a hand held device like a Blackberry, can feed the BOT all the cards require to make several times more money than his or hers salary each day.

Another options; By downloading 700 BOTs from the Internet, one could setup 100 tables with 7 BOTs per table, with two seats open for alive cash poker playing customers. By using "Cold Decks" the two cash customers at each table, could be cleaned out in quick fashion.

As long as man-made software is used to make or deliver playing cards for poker games, there is a strong opportunity for workers within the site to change, hack or program the software to suit their own needs. This is done without public knowledge and is out of sight. If an online poker player losses a poker pot or hand, will only consider having bad luck. And does not realize, the hand could have been manufactured back stage for the player. A perfect crime.

My question which I'm looking for an answer too. What are you doing or how are you protecting the public from this inevitable criminal activities within the online poker sites? Please answer.

You can't beat a real deck of cards and real players.

Sean Lind Sep 9, 2009

E Elliott,

You might find this article I wrote interesting:

Random Number Generators for Dummies

Yes, it's possible to insert malicious code into the actual software, a backdoor if you will. This is sort of what happened with the UB Scandal. The people who want to believe poker is rigged without actually putting logical thought into will argue against it, but it's as simple as this:

Poker sites have more to lose by hacking their own software then they have to gain.

If we assume they aren't hacking the software themselves, then it's next to impossible for any person to do it without their knowledge.

As for your cards dealt numbers, your sample size isn't nearly large enough to be decisive. In fact your range is almost exactly what one would expect from those numbers.

As for your bots, you might be interested in this article on poker bots:

The Future of Poker Bots

Also, to put 7 bots on one table would require 7 computers, with 7 different IP's, and somehow not getting caught by the people monitoring the sites.

Although possible, very improbable.

John J Sep 12, 2009

Still don't have the correct answer is Full Tilt software capable of being rigged by the employee running the table's. If this person can make changes in the system at any time then YES the site is rigged. No Body has that much skill and no body is that lucky. for the tourment I been losing. Back to the table where you can look at your other players. Win a little only to lose it in the end.

E Elliott Sep 20, 2009

After reading a majorities of the posting made by people, regarding cheating at online poker sites. Also to answer Sean Lind's (Sept 9 ) reply to my posting above, dated Sept 8.

First, I don't believe its the online poker sites themselves that is cheating, this would be like cutting their own nose off. It's the employees who are setting up the plays and along with either a partner or a BOT. The first question I would like to have the answer too, is where are these sites. If they are run within countries which are known for very low salaries, when it a sure thing. We are being cheated while playing on online poker sites. As somebody above somewhat mentioned, "If employees see all the money to be made, by just altering or hacking software." "Whats going to stop them from not doing so."

I have found the following from Security at these online poker sites. Security, so purpose is to protect the company and online poker site, and not the general poker playing public. Therefore you are on your own, playing poker for money that these sites. As long as software is used, to pick the cards and delivery them to the tables, you are fully open to being cheated.

I'm like so many of the above posters, how many times have I been knocked off by someone calling with nothing and getting to one sole card that makes them a winner.

After playing poker for over 55 years, one learns how to smell foul plays. Full Tilt Poker just stinks of coolers and other cheating method. Below is an actual poker hand log, only the game, hand number and players name been changed or left out. It also been shorten up to save space.

Full Tilt Poker Game #???????????: $6 + 0.50 KO Sit & Go (??????????), Table 2 - 200/400 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em
Seat 1: player1 (3,765)
Seat 2: player2 (6,235), is sitting out
Seat 3: player3 (14,495)
Seat 4: player4 (10,660)
Seat 5: player5 (5,425)
Seat 6: player6 (4,050)
Seat 8: player8 (1,555)
Seat 9: player9 (9,085)
All players antes 50.
I am player4.
player6 posts the small blind of 200
player8 posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
player9 calls 400
player1 calls 400
player2 folds
player3 folds
player4 folds
player5 calls 400
player6 folds
player8 raises to 1,505, and is all in
player9 calls 1,105
player1 raises to 3,715, and is all in (2nd raises)
player5 raises to 5,375, and is all in (3rd raises)
player5 shows [5h 6d]
player8 shows [Ad Qc]
player1 shows [9h 9s]
*** FLOP *** [7c 8s 9d]
*** TURN *** [7c 8s 9d] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [7c 8s 9d 5d] [Qd]
player5 shows a straight, Nine high
player1 shows three of a kind, Nines
player5 wins the side pot (4,420) with a straight, Nine high
player8 shows a pair of Queens
player5 wins the main pot (6,620) with a straight, Nine high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11,040 Main pot 6,620. Side pot 4,420. | Rake 0
Board: [7c 8s 9d 5d Qd]
Seat 1: player1 showed [9h 9s] and lost with three of a kind, Nines
Seat 2: player2 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: player3 folded before the Flop
Seat 4: player4 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: player5 (button) showed [5h 6d] and won (11,040) with a straight, Nine high
Seat 6: player6 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: player8 (big blind) showed [Ad Qc] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 9: player9 folded before the Flop

Some very interesting points.
1) Player5 won the main and side pot.
2) Player5 made the 3rd raises with off-suited 5h and 6d. This I would not call playing good poker.
To call 2 raises and make a 3rd, with poor cards like 5h and 6d to me is suicide, unless you got a message and knew what was coming.
3) Another issue, Player5 was sitting at the button. I ask support how are the cards dealt, example
are they dealt one at a time as per the normal way, or are they dealt two at once. Support says, "Cards are dealt the normal way." Not knowning what card was received last, but if it was the 6d, then the flop followed with 3 more cards (7c 8s 9d) all following in order. Question, "How good or honest is the card shuffling?" So much for this thing called RNG.

FACE IT, YOU ARE BEING CHEATED AT ONLINE POKER SITES, Full Tilt for sure.

E Elliott Sep 20, 2009

Before I bore everyone to death, let me tell you some more interesting things regarding "Online Poker Sites." First some background, been playing cards for years, I am now 72 years old. But Texas Hold em, is a new game to me, compared to some of the others I have played. Only got into playing Texas Hold em in the last 8 years or less. I started playing Texas Hold em Online, and enjoyed the play game tournaments.

Because I considered my abilities to play, being above average. Decided to try playing for the real stuff, money. I did not last long, I got tired and started to abuses myself. I could not believe that I could be that unlucky. I got the poorest run of cards I could ever get. Sometimes 30 hands pasted, before I got any kind of hand to play. Then if I went all in, somebody always called, maybe with a hand or sometimes nothing and they always won. Like the following sample hand, (myself As Ks) other player (Ac Qd) and on the river, sure enough the river is Qc. The only card that could make me a loser. After so much of this and you start talking to yourself.

And I did and soon realized, there was cheating going on. Why not, this was not the play game but for real money. And what a gravy train, because software is be used. It does not take long to realize how much cheating can go on using software.

Imagine being the software tech, and your job is to write and tell the computers what to do.
Like whats follows,
What cards to throw anyway?
What cards goes to what table?
What cards goes to what player at this table?
Which player gets the high cards and who gets the low cards?
Make some big winners, they will broadcast, better for business.
Money games, there is the rake, a small percentage of the pot which goes to the house (business).
Bigger hands makes bigger pots, the house gain very rapidly from big pots. This can be added into the software to develop bigger hands when timing is correct.

Can you believe you are playing against not only the odds but the house also. I believe it and also see it, I made a mistake playing for real money. As long as software is used it's the play games for me only.

The poker sites will defend themselves, by claiming its some 3rd party software and protected. There are hackers who can bring it down before lunch and add what they want. See on Youtude, Full Tilt software being hacked by using Tsearch. Where money is involved, not hard to find a good tech person to fix any software.

Kilgore Trout Sep 21, 2009

E Elliott,

You clearly have no idea how computers work. Firstly in the hand you posted, a player made a pretty poor play, but:
1) It's a $6 SNG
2) It's a KO SNG
3) Look at Stack Sizes

It's $6, lots of players don't care about that much $ and would rather take risks, even huge risks to grow a stack. Win or bust.

It's a KO SNG, which means two bounties were on the line, that greatly improves the 3rd man's pushing equity.

The guy made the push knowing that player 1 was probably just looking to get the bounty, and since the first all in was cheap, could have any two cards.

Plus, all player 5 has to do is beat player 1, the side pot is all that counts, he puts himself on live cards here.

Then he flops a straight, happens all the time.

In your next post you write all about security and hackers. I'm not sure you understand what hacking is. It is not possible to hack a poker site. Period.

The closest you can come would be a DDOS attack (Distributed Denial of Service) which would ONLY crash the servers, not gain you access.

Or you would have to physically show up to where the servers are and hack in manually. That's the only way you MIGHT get access. Poker sites, like Full Tilt have the same servers and securities and online banks.

Here's the truth:

The level of play online is far greater than it is live.

The level of play now, as opposed to 50 or 8 years ago is miles ahead of what it was.

The level of aggression in poker has increased dramatically.

In short, you are no longer "better than average", the average online player is as good as the best player you ever knew 10 years ago.

You're not as good as you want to think, instead of admitting it, you choose to believe that you win because you're good, or you lose because you're cheated.

E Elliott Sep 22, 2009

Lets make tally of the opinions of people who have posted on this board as being cheated.

Dave Jul 23, 2009| jim Jul 28, 2009| Jeokim Aug 1, 2009| Deborah Lowe Aug 3, 2009| Jman Aug 4, 2009| somethingaintright Aug 6, 2009| Tommy Aug 7, 2009| KnotNELikeB4 Aug 20, 2009| brenda Aug 27, 2009| Danny Aug 27, 2009| moron Aug 28, 2009| joe Sep 3, 2009| PokerKirk Sep 4, 2009| JohnW Sep 6, 2009| John J Sep 12, 2009|
Number of people who posted their beliefs of being cheated online = 15

I thank the above people for their opinion which I believe is 100% correct. And will continue to broadcast to the poker playing public of being cheated at online poker sites.

Only two people posted comments on regarding the honesty of the online sites, they are,
Kilgore Trout Aug 4, 2009 | who appears to be a clown, and helping to hide the facts of cheating at sites.
AND
dan lund Aug 16, 2009 | I have no comments at this time.

So the tally is 15 people who believe there is cheating going on and 2 people who are paid to try to change our minds. Good luck, because you will never change my thinking.

One of the first things is for everybody to know the language used. Therefore please visit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_deck if you don't have a good idea as too, what is a "Cold Deck or Cooler." Coolers is what you been playing out, where as somebody hits the magic card on the river to win the pot and puts you out of business.

Now to explore the knowledge of this clown Kilgore Trout. I have a question for you, but first the story.
Come with me to a friend of a friend's house to play a no limit Texas Hold em game. After entering the house, we are invited to sit down at the table. The game has already started, but at the beginning of a new hand, a very beautiful lady gives us two cards each and the same to all the other players.
My first comment, "Wow what a beautiful lady, who does she belong to?" "She is the wife of the man with the big stack, sitting next to you" says the house owner sitting in the game also. "I see she bought cards to everybody plus 5 cards for the center of the table," I said. Then I ask the house owner. "But where is the deck of cards." The reply from the people with big stacks was, "We decided to keep the game more friendly and not have any decks on the table, just like playing online." "The ladies are setup in the back room, and they shuffle the cards out of sight and just deliver out to the table what we use." "Neat hey, just like online poker."

NOW KILGORE TROUT YOUR QUESTION, WOULD YOU STAY AND PLAY IN THIS GAME OR GET UP LIKE I WOULD AND LEAVE?
Note: A non-answer by KILGORE TROUT, is a positive (yes) answer, which means the clown does not agree with the online poker sites and their method of handling cards. If the answer is a negative (no I would stay) answer. Then Kilgore Trout is a clown for sure.

The above story is exactly identical as to playing online. Can't see the dealer. Can't see the deck of cards. Plus you have to have complete trust into the people behind the site. Wake up, I did and now don't play for money online.

Another very suspicious piece of information. While searching the internet regarding BOTs, (Note: search yourself, re "online poker playing robot software"). Did encounter warnings, regarding poker sites prowling your computer in search of BOTs and other information about you and your habits. It appears, online poker sites use software but refuses to let you use software to play the game. Beside, once sign in, you are subject to any profiling the online site wants to know about your playing habits.

Here some more interesting facts. Online sites offer 110% bonus on your first money deposit. There are also sites who will return some of the rake back to you. How can they afford to offer 110%, only if they are stealing it anyway which they are. They won't let you make money. Sometimes they setup a person who they advertise how successful the person was.

Same as the tournaments, they may sponsor big tournaments. But how many in the end the money is split up between the gang. Like you win today, I will win tomorrow and we can just keep the public pumping money into believing they stand a chance of winning.

Kilgore Trout Sep 22, 2009

Elliott, you should probably seek some sort of help. Your logic is so very full of holes that it's almost embarrassing to read.

Firstly, your tally of people who are as paranoid as you.

If you start up a "Sept 9/11 was an inside job" blog, you'll get 95% people posting to agree, and rarely someone posting to argue.

It's human psychology, the people with issues speak up, the people doing allright stay silent, just because you only hear the issues, doesn't mean that there only are issues.

Still with me?

Ok your little home game scenario... this little analogy doesn't even make sense, since it has absolutely no relation to online poker. There are no teams of nerds manually setting up decks over at hte Full Tilt office.

Do you want a little animation of the deck being shuffled, is that what you're saying?

When you go to a casino, the deck is shuffled by the shuffle master. You don't actually see the cards being shuffled, so does that mean all live poker is rigged as well?

"How can they afford to offer 110%"?

This is simple, let's see if you can stay with me.

Poker sites make money by collecting rake. They offer bonuses which you have to clear by being part of that rake collection. You don't get your full 110% bonus until the amount of rake you partcipated in has paid for that bonus.

They never go out of pocket for these bonuses, and you're thinking far too short sighted. The more money in play on the site, the more money the site makes.

Let's let that sink in for a second....

The more hands dealt, the more large pots, the more rake. The more rake, the more money they make.

So the sites can A) get as much money into play as possible through bonuses

or B) steal the players money, to reduce the amount of money in play, directly affecting their rake/profit numbers.

The only way it can ever become a problem is if every player on a poker site requested a full cash-out at the same time.

If that happens, there is a chance a site could run out of money, not being able to pay everyone.

Sounds shady? Well it kind of is. But, it's exactly the same scenario as any bank in north america.

Bank of America does not have as much cash in their vaults as clients have in their acounts. If everyone tried to withdraw all at once, it wouldn't work.

We saw this happen in the great depression... since you're really old, I'm sure you remember that well.

You have absolutely no proof that poker is rigged, just random arguments with no basis in fact.

Get over it.

E Elliott Sep 22, 2009

I hereby give permission for anyone to copy in full or use portions of any posting I have made on this board. I believe it is my duty to draw the poker playing public attention to the facts of being cheated while playing online. Therefore you may copy and paste these postings on any board on the Internet or public publications.

E Elliott

whistleblower Sep 23, 2009

I make about $15 live/$200 a day playing 1/2 NL at the local casinos. I was curious about online play. I deposited $600 and the first day came out up $190 in a 5hr session. I was happy, my real life play was translating into my online play. Tight aggressive play/position play, occassional bluffing with position/bluff cards and being real aggressive when have a draw/made hand, etc. etc.

I tried again the 2nd day and suffered 25+ bad beats in a 1 day session, taking out the majority of my online bankroll. Setups like top set and getting rivered with a straight or AA vs KK and 2 outter hits on river stuff like that, setups like AK hitting top pair and facing off against a hidden set, stuff like that. I took it like a man, and figured maybe it's just variance and bad luck.

I reviewed my hands and identified something fishy, I have never seen so many bad beats in a session and started to feel cheated. I hang in there and play a bit more, same result. It's like a leaky boat and my game is pretty tight, I attributed my losses to losing every coin flip or being 1-3 outted on the river by really bad calls that normally pay you off. I scratch my head and asked some folks at work, big IT company.

Story goes that friends father refused to work for one of these poker sites who wanted him to program different codes, ie. coding that would generate monster vs monster hands or river cards to allow folks waiting to join the table, ie bust outs, next in line join table. The other thing he was asked to do was to write in a code that allowed newer folks to have a higher win % to get them hooked and this would shift to other newer players and so forth, like a wheel of fortune, the code is supposed to be hidden and built in. You have to realize that there are no security cameras like how real live casinos have, rigging is very easy.

The friends father who refused to do the coding died shortly after by apparent suicide, very shady stuff.

There is a great article about online poker sites and gambling in general;
http://www.encognitive.com/node/54

Play online when you cannot go outside and for play money only or free rolls, do not every deposit money, odds are the folks who do make money are using unfair advantages, collusion/packet sniffing and for the .000001% of player that does cash like a Tom Dwan, who is to say he is not connected to a insider of fulltilt? and the story of $50 is a ploy to get avg folks to deposit in hopes to make millions? No player can be that good at bingo without some form of advantage.

monkey Sep 23, 2009

1 Royal Flush Live play
3 Royal Flush online play, no multi table
odds of hitting a royal flush is 1in650,000 or so. I have played less than that online

Increase rate of quads vs full house etc., miracle river cards

When money is involved and humans are behind the curtains, anything is possible

Interesting how many pros are stuck online also;
http://www.pokertableratings.com/top-losers-today

There are 2 possibilities, and they can both be true;
the coding is rigged/corrupt to benefit house/corrupt insiders,
the opponents are cheating via collusion/msn/phone/cpus with different ips next to each other or the tech savy sniffing packets of data to translate whole cards and coming flop/turn/river so can identify which hands will hold up before the hand is played out!

My advice don't play online for money; you will experience pain and anger, stick to house games/live casino games. Casinos do a real good job with the eye in the sky and changing dealers every 30mins and some deal manual and some use the shuffler. People collude live games also, just be careful of raise re raise/hidden language/codes.

Humans will cheat if given the opporutnity, where money or egos are involved.

Based on what I have seen and know, I have no doubt there is shady stuff going on online.

k thanks Sep 23, 2009

Look, Hardy Boys.

Nobody cares about your notebook and magnifying glass, homespun detective work. Or your overwhelming "bodies of evidence."

Really, nobody cares in general. But specifically, no who is reading this two year old article (2 years old!) on an obscure poker site on a topic NOT EVEN REALLY related to rigged online poker does.

Why are you here? What momentum are you building to support your case?

Carry on the discussion at major online poker forum. Get each others' emails and compile all your evidence into one big awesome pile of stats and figures.

Build an irrefutable case you can submit to the police. Go public. Talk to CNN. Absolutely no one is stopping you.

But nobody. cares. here. If you believe it so much, and are so convinced it's true, GO DO SOMETHING about it.

Seriously. Your sleuthing genius is being wasted here.

This is like trying to blow the lid off the steroid problem in baseball by posting at the bottom of a two year old article on creatine on a baseball fan's blog.

Stop. Save yourself the anguish, and the hand wringing, and the pure feeling of despair in the pit of your stomach when you log off at the end of the night.

At this point, and in this place, you're simply doing this to hear your own voice. Not to protect any innocent victims. Not to bring anyone to justice.

Just purely and simply to blow your own tiny, tinny, sad whistle.

Go live the dream. Become the guy who blew the lid right off the online poker scam. Change the world.

But just, mostly, go away. For good. And get well.

hmmms Sep 23, 2009

There is nothing stopping the orignal programmer to have decoder of sorts by simply plugging in his whole cards and the flop to determine everyones whole cards, the turn and the river in advance.

Such a decoder could have been a backdoor left by the orginal design team, to avoid suspicion, the person using such advantage would occasionally make poor plays or pretend to draw knowing he will lose to make it look legit as he knows he will have all the chips at the very end of the day or week/month/year.

This advantage with the players who cheat online through collusion and the secondary coding to generate revenues streams for the poker site is what leads to all the online suspicion and anger amongst poker players.

I really do hope the FBI etc. crack down on these sites and the people behind them, acting to be all good at poker and stealing from the very best players.

People cheat because they think they cannot get caught and there is glory and millions to be made, just look at professional sports with baseball, who would have thought all these pros took steroids to gain a edge....the truth will come out sooner or later.

E Elliott Sep 24, 2009

I'm totally surprised at some people. Referring to the comments from "k thanks". Wow the most oblivious thought that slowly entered my poor sick weak mind was. This person must be the heavy squad. Yes, Kilgore Trout must have gave up. I'm sorry for putting you through hell and torture, but I do understand how difficult it is, to write against, facts and the truth. The facts being, software is used on online poker sites and software can be halted, hacked or be changed. So the vulnerability of this happening is present. Therefore the poker playing public should also be aware of it.

I would also like to commend you on your writing skills. You are a good writer. I don't know what kind of money you get paid. If I was you, I would be looking into writing for magazines or large papers. Because as of now, they are searching and wanting for article and stories, regarding this cheating online. Now you would have a ton of information and 1 or 2 writings would set you up for life. With the only writing you would have to do then, is write checks. Anyway, I think the end is near for this online poker sites using software.

Besides software, there is coming available "hardware." Still being worked on, hardware does not use software and can not be hacked, halted or be changed. It is a combination of electronic and mechanical functions. Gamblers are protected and 100% safe. As safe as if they where dealing the cards themselves. One of the larger foreign sites is ready to jump aboard. Goodbye to the sites using software.

Kilgore Trout Sep 24, 2009

E,

I gave up? Apparently you need to learn to read, since I did reply.

I get really big kicks out of your logic:

If they think online poker is rigged, they are smart reliable sources.

If they have solid arguments that it's not rigged, they work for poker sites.

Awesome deductive reasoning.

Finally you say

"Besides software, there is coming available "hardware." Still being worked on, hardware does not use software and can not be hacked"

This cracks me up more than you know. Firstly, hardware relies on software to work, unless we're talking about the first computers using physical on/off switches. Any hardware made past that point uses firmware to operate. Firmware is built in software which controls the operation of the hardware.

Also, the term "hacking" means making any device do things it was not originally intended to do. The origin of hacking came from 100% hardware. So yes, hardware can be hacked.

Don't act like you're an authority on this subject when you're clearly not.

Whistle Blower, here's the scoop. The skill level of online play (up to the very high stakes) is in the real of 10 times better than live play.

This means $1/$2 online is like palying $10/$20 live. If your game was strong enough to kill $10/$20, I'm pretty sure you'd be doing just that.

You attribute your losses to bad luck, have you checked your redline? In live poker you take the same losses, but have built up chips from the other players being horrible, so you still end up making money.

If you have a downward sloping redline, which I'm assuming you do, you're leaking chips slowly, so any bad beat will felt you.

Then you go into a story about a "big poker site" trying to get some guy you don't know to write cheating code, then the guy is murdered.

Yeah... I'm sure that happened just like that.

Monkey,

"or the tech savy sniffing packets of data to translate whole cards and coming flop/turn/river"

You clearly know some tech words, but don't actually understand what you're talking about.

First of all, the flop/turn/river is never sent out until its dealt, so there are no packets to sniff, as you like to put it.

The only way you can see other players hole cards is to install a trojan virus on their computer which lets you moniter what that user is doing as they do it. These are sometimes packaged with poker odds calculators online on torrent sites.

So that is people cheating, not the sites. And, if you run a simple virus scanner (or better yet don't try to steal poker software) you won't have that problem.

mymymy Sep 24, 2009

Glad I found this site, now I can understand what has been happening to me by playing poker at Full Tilt. Went to Full Tilt, liked the web site, liked the tables and all that goes with it. So I registered, because they offer a 110% bonus. I deposited $500, with the bonus of $600, I should have $1100 to play with. Surprises, you don't get the bonus, only after you accumulate point then small amounts are forward to you. A complete case of false advertising I would state.

The first few hands, all was well and most of my hands stood up. Then the same problems began as everybody else has stated. For 40 hands sometimes, can't get any playing cards or hands worth playing. If I did, the hand would get beat on the river. I got lucky one time on got to 4th place in a tournament, and won enough to cover my lost. Therefore I applied to have my money removed and send to me. Another huge problem, they wanted a copies of my bank statement and another piece of ID. I send them a copy of my passport, which was not good enough and had to send a complete copy of my credit card account. Finally, the money was sent, during the time I was involved in Full Tilt, they did pay me about $40 of the bonus.

Was completely astonished after finding the following at http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/full-tilt-poker-review/
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Celebrity-studded Full Tilt Poker was founded in 2004 and designed by some of the world’s top pros, including Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson. The former founded TiltWare, a software company that originally developed Full Tilt Poker’s proprietary software.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Not only are these people of Full Tilt pros, but also software company owners. How much more conveniences can you get? Have poker playing web site and make the software also? I wonder did these pros became pros from playing poker or by their skills in making software.

Here is sample, how to make cheating software or signalling device. The following is quite easy to program into the software.
If the middle card in the flop is between a A and 3, the river card is a spade.
If the middle card in the flop is between a 4 and 6, the river card is a heart.
If the middle card in the flop is between a 7 and 9, the river card is a club.
If the middle card in the flop is between a 10 and K, the river card is a diamond.

If you are aware of the above signals, then if one gets pocket cards of two diamonds, and the flop was 7d, Ks, 9d, then put all your money in. Any players which has two pairs or 3 of a kind, going to call you real fast. Known that you have to catch the 5th diamond to win and you know it's coming on the river. Sometime they may tighten up, but I'll go all in anytime against two pair or three of kind, if I know I am going to hit the flush.

With signals like the above, you should be able to see now, why you are getting beat all the time on the rivers.

I saw enough evidences of cheating that I will never play at Full Tilt Poker again.

whistleblower Sep 24, 2009

Kilgore, I appreciate the response and your reasoning. I do not suffer bad beats unless they are miracle river cards, coolers happen to me maybe once every month, not 25+ times in a session and that is without multi table.

I am able to fold say a Q high flopped flush vs a turned boat, my game is pretty tight aggressive and have read through Slansky's books and know when something smells foul.

The red/downward curves occurred when I was ahead 95% favored to win and the card spikes on the river. I know it's part of poker but not the stats I have seen in my small sample. Yes, maybe it will even out after 100K hands, but I dare not to play that long to find out online.

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, you know I know it's a duck. You can say all you want that online poker is safe and legit, my time online has told me otherwise. As you so kindly pointed out, why would I play online if it is 10x harder to make the money? If 1/2 online is a 10/20 game, I would much prefer go play live right? I can cash out anytime I want, don't have to question the game if 25 bad beats occur in a 3-5hr time frame, playing 1 table. Yes bad beats happen, I am sure you a familair with the ultimate bet scandal and the steroids issue in sports. I just wish you would open your mind to the possibility of sites/players cheating folks online. All it takes is 1 corrupt insider that holds the master key and believe me there is a master key, every software program has one and if you do not believe that, you are a very trusting person.

whistleblower Sep 24, 2009

http://www.gambling911.com/gambling-news/poker-cheating-scandal-raises-questions-regarding-big-name-pros-120108.html

whistleblower Sep 24, 2009

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/11/26/DI2008112602847.html

E Elliott Sep 24, 2009

Hello Whistleblower

Visited the links you posted, everyone should review them. I also see, you are somewhat like me being concern about what is happening to Online Poker. I want to thank you, for your input. This is the only way to try and put a stop to it.

Don't let Kilgore Trout upset you, there a strong feeling, Trout is a paid writer and is paid by Full Tilt. Therefore Trout has to work, so just let him mumble on. I just ignore it.

Keep up the good work Whistleblower.

Hey mymymy, that is quite the thing, your sample signal device. I just picture this, some worker in the control room in some far off land is setting the hands up for his brother in law in USA or England, maybe even two or three of them, sitting in the same game. As he is working setting up the hands and sending the signals to his relations, so they can cash in.

As for myself, I remember being beat so many times, by an all-in person with a flush on the river. I think many other people experience the same thing.

Try the Play Games rather than the Real Games. I found the hands where much different. Funny, because I think it all should come from the same RNG and by the same software. But for Play Money there are no coolers, and no cheating.

whistleblower Sep 25, 2009

Thanks E Elliott,

Here is another good link regarding the cheating scandal at Absolute Poker;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/29/AR2008112901679.html

I am not sure if Kilgore is familiar with the above story but it does seem he has a self interest in getting folks to believe online gambling is any way safe or regulated.

The internet in itself is still very unregulated it is like the wild wild west where the bad guys cheat the good guys and get away with it, until of course it gets regulated.

I agree, in all the play money games I have played online, I was able to turn $1,000 play chips into 400K-1.2 million playing the same style, looking for passive tables, where a tight aggressive style can win.

I am sure the sites can do whatever they wish as they is no regulation, if they wanted a player to win, that player will win. Who will question them? If you do question them folks like Kilgore will make you look like a bad player who doesn't understand poker or know how to play which is hilarious.

whistleblower Sep 25, 2009

http://www.pocketfives.com/online-poker-scene/ultimate-bet-cheating-scandal-statement-released-2920689

Kilgore do you still deny that sites or players don't cheat online? LOL you remind me of a
Ostrich.

Perhaps change your name to Kilgore Ostrich? :)

whistleblower Sep 25, 2009

Here is the face of a online cheater/site promoter, can there be a repeat in history with the likes of other sites? There are too many similarities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Hamilton

Kilgore Trout Sep 25, 2009

Whistleblower,

"have read through Slansky's books and know when something smells foul."

This is your first mistake. Sklansky's books will lose you money, read someone else.

"The red/downward curves occurred when I was ahead 95% favored to win and the card spikes on the river."

You misunderstood what I'm talking about. Your redline is your "non-showdown winnings", so when a lucky card spikes on the river, for that to affect your redline you need to have folded.

If you fold everytime a scare card hits the river, you're definitely losing money.

As for the AP scandal, I know it well. I know why it happened, how it happened, and we all know who was responsible.

There are thousands of low to high stakes online professionals. These are players who spend every day, up to 16 hours a day playing from 1 to 32 tables at a time of online poker. These players aren't new players, yet they still win consistently (with the occasional downswing).

So the software you speak of that lets new players win, then lose randomly skips all these players, who have no association with any poker site?

My point about the AB scandal, these players, who aren't paranoid online losers, did start to question if Russ Hamilton was cheating. Instead of just creating random theories, they put together proof. The main proof came in the form of a scatter plot chart, showing that Russ was so far out of the real of luck, it was impossible he was being legit.

These same players, who collectively play every day on every table on every site have never legitimately had concerns about any other player cheating.

These guys play for a living, they take their online money very seriously, and they have the most to lose if online poker was rigged. If they trust online poker, why don't you?

You ask about the difference in skill between online and live poker. The reason for people playing online instead of live comes down to three main things:

Convenience

and rate of play.

At live $10-$20 NL poker you're risking $5,000 - $20,000 on one table.

At online $1-$2 you're risking $1,600 across 8 tables.

Less risk, means you can keep varience lower. Online poker pros would rather have a consistent grind profit with a roll able to cover their swings than risk a big score, and end up going broke.

As for the "master Key", the term you're looking for is "godmode" or "god account". An account with the ability to see all cards.

Absolute poker had accounts like this while the software was in production for testing. They removed these accounts by deactivating them, and all was good.

Whey they hired a 3rd party contractor to do some work on the software he found these accounts, and activated some, giving one to Russ Hamilton.

That was one poker site, and that has been fixed. Other poker sites use the server logs post hand to test and error check, since the server will know all the cards when the hand is over.

One thing you guys need to understand, Full Tilt uses a continuous shuffle. Not even the server actually dealing the cards knows what card will come next. The deck is being shuffled constantly, and a card only dealt at the exact moment it's required.

It's impossible for even the server to know what card will come next, since it's impossible to know when the users will complete their actions.

E.Elliot,

You're a piece of work! You make things up, and spout them off as truth without any reason or proof.

I never have and never will work for Full Tilt, yet you claim I do like you've seen their payroll.

If you're willing to make shit up about that, why should anyone believe you're not making everything else up about what you say.

Also, you talk about the "signaling system" and how a guy can set up hands for someone.

If you had any idea, even a basic idea of how the poker software actually works, you'd understand that those aren't realistic ideas at all. You've been watching too many bad movies.

The play money tables and real money tables use the identical software, the fact that you are sure that it's different proves how deluded you really are.

I'm a computer programmer, I know a lot about software and hardware. I'm a losing online poker player.

I lose at online poker.

I do not win

Other players take my money.

I get bad beat more than you, for more money than you.

I make lots of money playing live poker.

Yet I don't think online poker is rigged, and have NEVER found any reason to believe otherwise.

You're stubborn and ignorant when it comes to computers. You're sour that you lose and get bad beat, and would rather blame cheaters than yourself.

This is basic human psychology, open your eyes and deal with it.

E Elliott Sep 25, 2009

No doubt, the constant shuffling of the deck may appeal to some. But as far as I'm concern this constant shuffling is an advantage to the cheater who has altered the software. A person with any background in programming would jump for joice, because of the constant shuffling.

The popular programmering statement "if, then, or else" lets review this statement. I'll uses the one from my first posting.

{
$input_from_F10_key = /enter what card is required to complete your hand;
if $card from RNG equals $inputfromF10key;
then "sent to the table at $input-from-computer-tech-on-duty;"
else "delete and draw another card from the RNG";
}
With an input from the F10 key, the person can enter what card is need to complete the hand.
Because the cards are constantly being shuffled, the software won't send any card to the table until one matches the input from the F10 key. Then it will send it to the table.

If the cards where not shuffled constantly, and for example 52 cards are setup for the table. All cards has to be taken in rotation, well the above "if then and else" statement would not work all that well. So this constant shuffling is somewhat an advantage for the cheater.

My overall picture of this online poker playing for money, is not a bright one. I have decided to just go to the casino to play poker for money and play for fun online.

Another interesting thing, reviewing all posting from the top of the board. The clown Kilgore Trout
has protected Full Tilt Poker with stories, lies or whatever. For a person to go to this extreme, I would think must be trying to protect an interest of some kind. Myself, I complained about the possible cheating at Full Tilt, but it does not bother me. Let them cheat, I'll never be sitting at any table anymore playing for money. So clown Trout tell your buddies they got my permission to fix the decks, use coolers or whatever is required to win. Very soon all that will be left to play are the BOTs anyway, and they wait all night for Aces or large pairs.

Here how to beat the BOTs, always make a small raise before the flop. A BOT will back raise for sure. If you can't beat Aces, pass. BOTs make a very poor dull game, no excitement. Pots are always small, that is why this cheating and cold decks. It does make bigger pots.

Take care and have a nice weekend.

whistleblower Sep 25, 2009

"You misunderstood what I'm talking about. Your redline is your "non-showdown winnings", so when a lucky card spikes on the river, for that to affect your redline you need to have folded.

If you fold everytime a scare card hits the river, you're definitely losing money."

I think you are misunderstanding me, I am the one betting hard to prevent a showdown (I would prefer they fold so I can take down the pot there and then) and if it does get to showdown (my hand does have showdown value) I am ahead and is favored to win the hand/make money. Why would I fold a top set and be afraid of a runner runner straight or flush hits? At that point I have already either went all in post flop/turn or committed my stack to that hand. I do prefer someone chasing as you will get paid out, just doesn't happen online though, in my small sample, I have lost majority of my bankroll online, like this.
If it is not top set then it's all in pre flop AA vs KK, hands that are designed to make you lose money. Frankly, I do not like flipping coin pre flop as it is not winning cash game poker style. With raise/re raise, you can understand why it goes to showdown with these kinds of hands.

I may fold on the turn/river if I know I am beat and the pot odds are not there for me to call, it's a gut feeling and how I have profiled the player.

With the Ultimate Bet/AP scandal they have not released 31 names associated with Russ Hamilton, fearing civil retaliation if they are found innocent. Who is to say the top folks at the Tribe/site owners are not in on it? I know it sounds so grand and makes for a great good fellas type movie, but I have come to know if it's possible it's highly probable. I know you won't believe until you see it for yourself or it's proven by another scandal type story. My feeling is, this will not go away until there is proper regulation for online poker.

So you are telling me when I decide to call/raise/fold it will affect the outcome of the hand LOL omg, that is so wrong. I would rather prefer a real shuffle then have this fantasy land shuffle be deteremined by when I act or when my opponents act. Do they burn cards? This affects the entire dynamic of poker and how hands are played out! Imagine the dealer continuously shuffling at a live casino while you are heads up for a big pot, that I am not happy with. That has changed the outcome and the correct cards to be dealt down, flop/turn/river! I know you are saying, this is then truely random and nobody has a edge, you are wrong as the coding has been designed to give new players or certain players a higher win % so they can either benefit the house in rake or insiders. It was coined secondary revenue streams, how many times have you seen quads or monsters in online poker? For that to happen on a regular basis is out of the statistical norm. That is why I know its rigged. It's human nature, if you can cheat at something and think you cannot get caught, you will do it.

If insiders/players are cheating, I am sure they learned a lot from the ultimate bet/ap cheating scandal. I am sure they will lose on purpose once in a while to avoid suspicion and to make it look like they don't have the edge. I am just shocked at how these sites and professional promoters have convinced the masses that a) it's safe to play online and b) it's a game of skill.

How is it a game of skill when 4 of my favourite professional players are stuck online? Gus Hanson, John Juwanda, Patrick Antonius and now Phil Ivey? These guys cannot win online but have won millions live? Something is not adding up, either they have been targeted for a fleecing or they are not that good after all.

Skansky's book, No Limit Hold'em for advance players is considered one of the best books on poker, who else would you recommend?
http://www.tightpoker.com/books/holdem_advanced.html

moose Sep 25, 2009

not a good writer. been taking a very bad beating at full tilt going to join the club with the rest and stay away from the place

JOEJOE Sep 29, 2009

Fulltilt Is a scam i plaid cash games and twice lost with 2pair. one incident had j 10 it came pre flop and other guy caught AK at the river. and i always lose when these loosers go all in chasing a flush.

rye Oct 1, 2009

After reading the messages posted i thought that i would give my two cents. First of all playing poker in the online world is much much different than playing in a casino. I have played thousands upon thousands of hands online, i do have a good grasp on the subject. The money being made by these large poker sites is so huge that they are protecting their asset with every resource they have. A good reputation is all full tilt and other large sites have. The pros that own full tilt are making millions upon millions from providing a solid fair place to play online. There is no reasonable need or logic to them being involved in a cheating scandal to steal your 10 dollar buy into some tournament right before the bubble. The possible idea of outsiders or hackers cheating online is a possibility but a very low percentage. The people making fortunes from running their sites legit are spending fortunes protecting them against vulnerbilities. When it comes to bad beats and cold runs this happens all the time in any form of poker. Bad bad insane how the hell one outers happen if you play long enough. Playing online is generally accepted to be 3 to 4 times faster than live play and obviously this leads to bad suck outs happening 3 to 4 times faster and more often. Another reason for seeing alot more of these plays happening is because of sit and go and turbo tournament formats online. The rapidly increasing blinds lead to alot of "all ins" in no limit holdem or any other no limit game. When a player is all in and called both players are going to see all 5 board cards which increases the odds of seeing a low percentage card hitting. In cash games you will see alot less of this because the betting usually ends the hand before the cards a player needs to come from behind arrive. Now to the real truth behind all of the "i was cheated" talk being posted online, and im honestly sorry to break this to you and i probably shouldnt "tap the glass" Your david skalansky style poker is so outdated you have no idea. Players online are far far superior to the players your playing against in poker rooms in your hometown and in most cases better than any player youve ever played. Winning poker styles have changed and changed huge. Until you have mastered the standard format and widely accepted way to play texas holdem, you can not possibly understand how players today are playing the game. Im sorry to break it to you old timers but basically everything that you know about playing poker is wrong. Most of your bad suck outs have happend i guarentee when your calling a player betting into you when you have a made large hand. This is because winning players that you guys consider "donkeys" or calling stations or cheaters are very very aggressive. I have first hand knowledge of this because i am one of these players, and make more money playing online poker than you can imagine. You have no idea how many times ive sent players out of a tournament or taken their whole stack playing a total trash hand. The reason for this is because i know what your hole cards are.... not because i can see them or have because ive hacked a server, its because you old school players are far far to predictable. Everytime i crack a squeezer playing aces with my 45 offsuit you all cry the same story. 1.its bad luck 2.always happens to you. 3.im a donkey 4. im a cheater 5.this is the 4th or 5th time your aces were cracked today, full tilt sucks blah blah blah. I will give you this advice, which im sure you will ridicule and not take anyway... forget everything you think you know about poker and math and odds. Start learning about fear and drawing power and implied odds. Playing 45 67 89 68 hands like this against your aces are not profitable but hugely profitable because when i make a massive hand your losing your whole stack. The odds of your aces and kings being good in a tournament are almost ZERO because players like myself (and there is alot online) will constantly take runs at your hand until i catch you. This strategy also leads to "big or bust" chip stacks and when i have you outchipped 4 5 or 6 to 1 yes im going to call your pathetic see thru raise with any reasonable hand because i know what you have and you have no idea what im holding. Im sorry to break it to you all but you are not getting cheated online you being outplayed by more sophisticated players than yourself. When a guy bets into your aces and you reraise and he calls and the flop comes 55j and he just happens to have a 5, its not cheating its because hes folded every other time he missed and you dont know what hes raising with. There is no way for you to understand how they have "that hand" until you open your eyes. I am proof. I used to be in your boat and was a big loser online and a winner at the casino. I now make so much money online im so bored at the casino i cant even play there anymore. Your money is not being stolen by a hacker or cheater, its being taken by a new school type poker player which online poker has given rise to. Please dont respond with some hand history of a terrible suck and all that ive seen it all before and far worse. It happens, get over it, stop with the conspiracy talk and sharpen your game if you want to be winner online. There is still alot of hands where you trap some terrible player who calls you and he sucks out, but sorry to break it to you (and trust me i know what your thinking that what im saying doesnt apply to that one special bad beat you have in mind) you are being badly outplayed and you just cant understand why. 99 percent of all poker players will never understand this style or gain enough expirience to play it but this IS whats happening to you. Sorry to burst your bubble...and no i dont work for full tilt.

ps.. There has never been a multiple thousand hand history(lots have tried) posted ANYWHERE showing anything outside of ordinary variance. EVER. EVER. EVER. EVER. get it through your head.

whistleblower Oct 1, 2009

I am sure you are familiar with
http://www.pokertableratings.com/

I am familiar with your kind of poker and to be honest, it's broke poker. Ziigmund is living proof he's very aggressive and yes you can win in the short term, but not in the long, you will go broke. You make too many assumptions assuming, I am beat by a better player. I have looked up the opponents that have given me bad beats and hit miracle cards and they are far worst than me in terms of graph/roi etc.

I was mearly commenting on my experience online so far in the yes small sample I have played, 10K hands. It is still 90K hands of saying anything about the RNG.

The players who play online that win are playing correct poker but the calling stations/bingo players will lose in the long run. I just hope you have a big enough bankroll to support your new winning style. Unless you are Tom Dwan, you maybe up now but keep playing the way you do and you will go broke.

I am sure you know there is still a case vs UB/AP right? Don't be so sure online is a safe place to play until it is regulated properly.

Randy Oct 1, 2009

I just finished tracking for 2 weeks hands in the free roll face the ace tournies. I gathered 2600 hands for which there was 2 or 3 all-ins pre or post flop. I wanted to see if the best hand flopped held up since with only 2 cards to come the probabilities are fairly straight forward. I found the leading hand after the flop lost the hand just over 68.5% of the time. I did not control for particular probablity pairings nor control for whether it was 2 or three handed: however, this is a very high losing rate and for every rare hand in which the leading hand is not favored there are many more where the leading hand is more typically 3 or 4 to 1 favorite. Fulltilt is making a mistake with the face the ace tournies running so ofter with so many all-ins, it is exposing that "random generated" hands are not the same as you would see at a live game. The probablities don't lie. I don't think FT is cheating on behalf of anyone I think there is a problem in software.

rye Oct 1, 2009

i expected nothing less from you whistleblower. By your comments i know you are not familiar at all with the poker play im talking about. This is exactly why you are losing your money. You sound intelligent and sounds like you have a good handle on poker starting odds. Im truly not trying to be condesending but you need to rework your game and your probably one of the few smart enough to do it. I really am not interested in hearing about your opinion anymore because i know it to be just plain untrue. I shared in this idea that i must be being cheated for years. Always playing the "best" starting hand was a one way trip downward for my roi. There will always be bad players delivering you bad beats but i refuse to believe the only players that have sucked out on you are loosing players. Looking up players stats is exactly how i changed my game. After being badly beat by weird cards i would always rush to a poker stats sight to see just how bad the donkey was that just took my money. What i found and what you will also find if your truly honest with yourself is that some of these players are winning players. Dont be so fast to call me a bingo player. The only odds people with your attitude ever calculate are the cards, there is so much more to the game. You always think that your hand is such a favorite but its just not. To explain it to you in your language, this style of poker is not just all about aggression, its more odds based than your ancient strategy. What you refuse to calculate is the odds of your opponent folding. If im playing a hand that is 65/35 dog to yours and can calculate yourself as a tight player i know without a solid connection to the board cards i have AT MINIMUM a 30 percent chance of making you fold your cards. In my mind im a favorite to take the pot. Many times the flop and turn bring many additional rag outs and even more often scare cards such as the dreaded paired board you refered to earlier that will entice a fold. And if called still have outs to win the pot. Like i said earlier this style takes tremendous observation and player categorization skills as well as alot of experience in flop and board texture. Your truly failing to calculate the most important odds in poker. Along with an super aggresive style you also play the large big hands that you normally play but guess what.. when i play them after running so called wrecklessly i get paid unlike you who im sure unless your on the right side of cooler takes a small to medium pots at low rate. Your logic is totally flawed and you just have to let that "playing your style YOU will go broke" mentality go. Tell that to durrr since you mention him. As long as you continue with your style i will continue to make money and you will continue to call me a bingo player from the rail. I still use strict and proper bankroll management and i might back up but im not going broke... but to be honest i find it hard to take lessons from players telling me about the l"long run" who are playing a poker style i mastered years ago and who are loosing players. Hows your stategy looking for the long run??? Ill tell ya cause i took it for a real real long run... breaking even maybe maybe slightly up is a very optimistic outlook for your future playin cards. Sorry to be the one bringing the truth to ya. Let the conspiracys go they hold no merit at all.

whistleblower Oct 2, 2009

Rye,

I appreciate your response and understand what you are talking about. You misunderstand me by assuming I only play "premium hands." My play is dictated by the profile I have assigned to the table/players and my starting hands will vary depending on chip stack/position and mood of the opposing players. You assume to much to paint me as a player who squeezes out group 1 cards only.

I try to make the opponent fold and if it does go to a showdown, I either have the best hand or have greater than 9 outs to win. Yes everyone occasionally sucks out.

I was mearly saying, in my short term online, I have lost majority of my bankroll the small deposit I have made, through suckouts or coolers. This is why I find it surprising others have shared the same opinion. I don't need to hear about how you play, frankly you can be very good, the best players in the world will lose to the luckiest. Online so far I have been the unlucky player, I suppose. Once I am completed my 100k hand sample, I will further review and see if there is anything outside the statistical norm.

I am sure you can win lots and you have to know you can lose lots with your style also.

The thing is I rather be a Phil Ivey than a Ferguson, it is always better to play the situation/opponents over the cards you have. Skill > math based players, Yes I know that.

It would be funny to know a few years down the line, what we are saying here is true. That online play is sketchy and that maybe baseball players did use steroids.

E Elliott Oct 2, 2009

After staying idle for several days, I believe it is time once again to open up, regarding my theory, "There cheating go on within Full Tilt."
First must thank all the people such as the recent inputs from "whistleblower and Randy." Who also appear to support the idea, "all is not right in Full Tilt's handling of cards."
The next is inputs from people who I would like to ask this question too, regarding their inputs, "What interest do you have in Full Tilt, to offer pages and pages of nothings in view of their defenses?"

In simple language, following are my opinions and circumstances which causes me to believe foul play is evident at this poker site.

1)Man made software picks the cards and delivers cards to the tables. This software source codes can be altered to suit the benefits of the poker sites. For example, once a card is picked from the constant shuffling, it must be checked against a data base or array, as to not have two of the same cards going to the same table. Example two Aces of hearts going to the same table. This alone gives programmers the opportunities to alter cards within the source code. The only declaration the poker site can make is how honest their software is. Honesty is a 7 letter word only, and very easy to write. I would bet my bankroll, the recent scam by the investors, the late famous American and Canadian fraud cases of Bernard L. Madoff and Earl Jones spoke many times of honesty. And today, the people who believed in their honesty are standing around with empty pockets.

THEREFORE TO PLAY ON LINE, ONE MUST DECIDED FIRST, CAN YOU TRUST THIS SITE AND THEIR SOFTWARE.

My answer, "no" because I have not seen anywhere on their site, where a person can download the software for checking. Therefore, they must have something to hide.

2)Another factor that adds more to this concept. Some of the owners and backers of Full Tilt came from a software company called Tiltware. With this kind of background in the making of software, it quite certain they would make software to benefit Full Tilt and not the public.

3)Another story the protectors of Full Tilt trying to persuaded the public is, Full Tilt makes
enough money without rigging the software. As far as I know, they get paid "per person" who enters a game, plus the rake. Now the bigger the hands, more rake money and the sooner the game is over (tournaments), and more money can be made to start another. So protectors, it too Full Tilt advantage to rig the software. Beside, today there is plenty of competition in the online poker industry. This is quite noticeable because of sites offering large bonuses for sign ups. Like Full Tilt offering 110% of your first deposit. Therefore it cost more to stay online today, hence to recover, cheating comes into play.

4)It would be quite understandable, that Full Tilt also programs a profile of player's and their actions. This would be of your playing skills, if you bluff, if you play on suited cards and how you play pairs. The software would just give a player a number value of each event, and supply the computer with a rating. Then the computer (software) can act accordingly. The higher the number the better player you are. Why would they not profile a player, all the information is at their finger tips, just a matter of filing it and calculating it?

5)Some of the software rigging can be so simple, example. I have found many times playing the 90 players tournaments. At the start, receive good pocket cards and able to gain chips. But once nearing the winning circle, sometimes for as high as 40 hands. No decent pocket cards to play, just junk. If by chance did receive a pair or playing cards, the flop produced cards that would not help your hand. Therefore the blinds soon eat your stack down to bare minimum, hence you have to go all-in on some maybe pocket cards in hope of building your stack up. Of course you loss and is out of the game. This never appears to happen to some players in the game, plus if I'm not receiving good playing cards, then other players has to be getting them. So much for this fairness described in the information on RNG or is the software rigged. To not give you any good hands and let the blinds eat you up. Maybe that is why Full Tilt has big blinds in play?

6)Another subject, BOTs (poker playing software) many sites are forbidding using of BOTs. To my knowledge, this does not apply to Full Tilt. The sites warn players that they will lose their membership and their accounts will be frozen if caught using a BOT. If I got toss out and my money was taken because of using a BOT, I would be on the phone to my lawyer immediately. Seeking a "Theft charge by use of discrimination." How can a poker site remove a person and keep the money for using a BOT? A software robot poker player, playing online poker against software dealing cards and running a poker game. It is only fair in this world if poker sites use software, then players should be able to use software also. Yes this should be an easy million dollar court case for a person.

In closing, my suggestion, go download a BOT. Some are free others cost money. Use a BOT against the software rigging of Full Tilt, because BOT are not human and will never stray from what it is told to do. BOTs are never attempted to out draw a player, or call a bet because the person is all-in. Some BOTs do a real good job, even will bluff a hand. They will sit and wait for winning hands, some you can play 6 games at once. Therefore you can set the maximum of the stack to be example, 1.5 times the buy-ins. Then once it reaches this amount it will quit, therefore in a $2.00 game, it will quit once it reaches $5.00. This times 6 BOTs playing would give you a $18.00 profit over night. Providing the BOT receives playing cards. If you want, some have their own programmable language attached and you can program it to the way you want to play.

I'm certain the usage of BOTs, going to can the online poker games, and more and more cheating will be done. After losing a big pot today, you have to make up your mind. Was I had by a BOT, or cold decked by the poker site software? The best don't play online until software is forbidden to use.

Another interesting item, some online sites, you can't use your credit cards. Although it is advertise you can. The credit card is refused by the credit card people, just goes to show you how unreliable and unsafe the true business world believes the online poker world is.

whistleblower Oct 3, 2009

You make some excellent points Elliott. I agree with everything you said. I tried to withdraw my money back to my Visa and was told it was not possible LOL so I try to create a moneybrookers account only to find out they put this EURO charge on your VISA but get this, in order to verify that amount you have to enter the exact EURO charge they made. My statement does not show that amount it only shows the conversion. I have to make a wire transfer of x funds to activate the account LOL so in essence right now, I can deposit money very easily but cannot withdraw ROFL

Everything is designed to keep your deposit in and suffer bad beats and slowly lose your money to the rake and coolers. You will will occasionally to allow your brain to feel good and keep playing.

I am really starting to think the only folks that win at online poker are the ones that are connected to the corrupt insiders or cheat somehow, if be by collusion or by some high tech means.

I did some fact finding and realized that all these online poker sites are tied into some Tribe in Canada, the same Tribe where the ex Chief was tied to the UB/AP online cheating scandal. There is still 31 unamed people who cheated folks out of millions of dollars that has not yet been named, in fear of civil retaliation law suits. I am betting these 31 people are people we know in the poker world.

Right now, online poker to me is nothing more than entertainment, budget accordingly. How much are you willing to spend in tonights entertainment? $5? $500? $1000? The choice is up to you.

I noticed a pattern though, everytime someone cries foul over online poker. The typical defenses are, they have nothing to gain, it's impossible to cheat online, online is safe, you suck at poker, online is much harder, sites rather be legit and make money through rake. Folks online site is no different that that guy that used to stand in the corner alley way taking your money trying to guess where the card under the cup is or that carney taking your $20 to win some $5 stuff animal. Think about it.

E Elliott Oct 3, 2009

Saturday morning, a good time to write. I thank you "whistleblower" for your encouragement and efforts of trying to de-rail this online poker nightmare. You are on the right track and hitting and driving the spike home, or at least trying to get the public playing poker players to understand they are getting fleeced, while playing on sites with software making and delivering cards.
I know only too well, how you feel about the withdraw of money from your account at Full Tilt. I went through the same ordeal. After depositing $500 because of the bonus BS, which I only receive a small amount of, I had to send them a copy of my bank statement to beable to get a check for the withdraw. What did they want to see how much money they where leaving behind, or how much they can scam me for?
Yes its certainly shameful on behalf of the Canadian Mohawks (Kahnawake Council), I understand they supply the license and other companies are the onsite people. They (Kahnawake) have a web site, just look up "Kahnawake" for an address and write to them complaining. If they have any decency, they will pull the license on this "tank of thieves." Imagine, the "tank of thieves" spitting up the money in the backroom, after playing an online tournament.
I'm totally surpised, so far there has been no protector, writing long stories. Regarding how you should play out a hand and it is all your fault you lost. Yes, protector write the story how I am wrong. But first answer these question.
Is there software being used?
Can software be written by a human beings to suit themself?
Are the people behind this online poker site (Full Tilt) also have a company called Tiltware Software?

These programmers are remarkable, why very simple. They have created poker playing software that does offer the public about every possible feeling, one seeks for in life. About the closes explanation for this sentence is as follows. For many years, during the afternoon time slots on TV, was the soap operas. Soaps, they offered the viewers, romance, heartbreak, fear, laughter and joy and all the other things. People craved for this, now with this storybook kind of poker playing software, people can enjoy similar. Providing you can afford it. Yes if I could, would see if I could get these programmers, an Oscar. For developing a make believe storybook world in poker. While all the time, sticking money into their pockets, from cheating poor players who are trying to live and enjoy their lives.

Anyone can report this crime if so desired. At the https://complaint.ic3.gov/ctf.aspx there is a form to fill in. If any person has the feeling he or she as been cheated should make a report here. This will get the online poker games regulated sooner.

Another suggestion, as suggested before, go to http://bonusbots.com/ download their BOT. You can use it for 200 hands before you have to buy a licence. Which is quite healthy and costly to buy.
Play it on Full Tilt, all you will be doing is adding another BOT to the game. BOTs are dynamite to the computer server world. BOTs play like this, call and raise the blind. If a re-raise will fold. Therefore it takes forever to get a hand worth anything. Pots are very small, rakes are small. The poker site just burns up lots of hours making very little. Maybe this may wake up the Full Tilt staff to realize how good a real world of players is?
To my knowledge, if there are problems with Full Tilt because of the usage of BOTs, then it is discriminatory. I said before,"How can Full Tilt use software, and I can't use software to play against their software."

Yesterday, played several 90 players play tornaments. Ended up in the winning circle twice. What a different it is playing when you don't have to "Ride out coolers."

rye Oct 4, 2009

Whistle... I wasnt trying to peg you as a one dimensional player and like i said before you actually sound like one of few who has a good handle on the game. My point was mostly pointed at the fact that most players cry over suck outs after they slow play huge hands. The replay for friends is almost always not how it happend. aka they limped with their kk and got beat by some guy with 57 in the bb who flopped 2 pair. The story usually ends up " i went all in with kk and some donkey called with 57 and flopped 2 pair!!! fulltilt is kinky" Even more common than that is an aggresive player bluffing getting called and picking up outs on the turn and making a hand on the river. Point being there is usually some logic behind alot of the so called "bad beats" ive seen.

Elliot... I truly fail to follow most of your points at all. Because poker sites use software to play out the hands you think it should be ok for players to use bots...hmmm.. arent you playing against other players and not full tilt? It seems pretty straight forward that its not you playing against the software of full tilt. And more importantly if bots play "perfect poker" and the software is rigged to steal your money no matter how you play, what difference under your theory would a bot make? Regardless poker bots are lousy and can not come close to competing on any scale larger than micro micro levels.

Going cold for forty hands near the bubble is not unusual in anyway playing anykind of poker anywhere. That is not even close to being anything out of the ordinary. If one of the facts that your making your case on is going cold for 40 hands you have absolutly no clue.

Yes software is man made..... its the only way to make it, it proves nothing. Madoff and earl jones???? really do I even need to respond to the irrelevance? Full tilt does not need to cheat to get your signup bonus back, it gets released slowly and comes out of the rake YOUR paying. The sign up bonus any poker site gives you is free to them. They are basically letting you play rake free on your first deposit. Also Player profiling.. So what if sites do player profile?? what does that have anything to do with proving of a scandal or cheating?? or is that about as relative as the time you went cold for 40 hands?

None of these points mmake any sense or prove any kind of cheating. Yes credit card companys have stopped putting through charges to poker sites.. gambling is illegal in the us and there worried about possible ramifications to themselves. This has nothing to do with cheating or stealing at all.

For what reason would full tilt give you or anybody else access to "examine" their software? I wouldnt expect them or any other large company to reveal the software they have created and own to anybody else.

Assume for a minute that these sites are run legit... Would they be run from an indian reserve when gambling is legal?..yes. Would they give you access to their software?..no Would they take a rake to make a profit?..yes Would bad players cry over being sucked out on?...yes Would credit card companys possibly have legal problem for processing gambling transactions where its illegal?..yes Would the the people who wrote the software have to have a company of somekind?(tiltware)...yes . Now the biggest question of all.... presuming for a second it is legit.... Would someone have a 10 or 20 thousand hand history that showed anything outside of normal??.......NO. And guess what elliot NOBODY DOES!! and nobody has ever produced one!!! By listening to your points on why you think full tilt is cheating you I have a pretty good grasp on your intelligence, and probably a pretty good grasp on your poker ability. The software isnt the problem.

whistleblower Oct 4, 2009

Lately, I have been running hot, I mean super hot. The kind of hot that would make it look like I was cheating. If I raised, I would hit, If I was behind I would hit, flopping nuts, getting max value. Isn't this a crazy game?

BTW I have modified my game so I only play 18-20-% of the hands that are dealt to me, a reduction in 10% and if I do play a hand I raise no matter what. 70% of the time they miss and follow through bet with a hand or without usually takes down the pot and if they just call, heck I got lots of outs and see what develops.

I have seen both sides, running cold, getting coolers and now delivering them. I still find it unrealistic for my tastes though, this was accomplished through multi tabling, the past 10 sessions, I have won 8. It feels good to win with or without a hand, my grade has improved from a C+ to a B+ on Poker Table Ratings. That being said, I am convinced if they want you to win you will win and if they want you to lose, you will. I will only truly trust online poker once it has been regulated and there is a finaly to the UB/AP scandal. The cheater got away without being named and his affiliated got away scotch free so far, nobody knows if they are doing the same thing but more clever on other sites as we speak.

For every wall that is built there is a bigger ladder to scale that wall.

4058 Oct 4, 2009

e. elliot,wistleblower you ars both so very right.Anyone who beleives cheating does not occur must be living in fantasy land.You both sound like computer gooroos and are very intelligant,thank you for your comments and keep posting all this good and valuable information

E Elliott Oct 4, 2009

I thank you "4058" for your encouragement. My feeling is this, if I can educate one father, not to take $50 to the online poker site but in steady, take his children out and spend the money in fun.
The children will reward him with kisses and hugs. While the online poker site, will profile him as a "Big Fish" So next time they can bait him with small win. Only to grab $100 or more from him on his third visit. That is my story regarding online poker. Also, would like to see more comments from other viewers. Post what you know or believe.

I see, there is another person "rye" who completely don't want anybody to know, there is cheating going on. Why is this person protecting Full Tilt, must have some interest in Full Tilt, or is he paid by Full Tilt to try and coverup any theories about "Cheating at Play." Myself I would not even start my computer for them. Full Tilt is making the money, why don't they step up to the plate and defend themselves. I guess they sent a subsitute instead, Hello "subsitute rye."

As for what evidence I have regarding "Cheating at Play" and Full Tilt. Here it is in full.
As long as software is being used. You will never see me again play for poker for money. Software which is simple to halter and rig up for the benefit of the house itself. I'm as solid as a BOT, on my evidence and nobody going to change my mind. You can be as critical as you want. The facts are,
1)Software is used.
2)Cheating can be done with software.

It's your duty "subsitute rye" to tell us why you can't cheat using sotware, or at least why not with Full Tilt software. But before you do read the following.
In the past, banks were robbed with guns, today banks, people and firms are robbed with software.
Our across country lottery, had some kind of scandal lately, regarding software and fraudulence activities. Look up on the internet for "software scandals" and see what you get.

"subsitute rye" you mention, the company would not want you or the public to see the source code. There is something about open source code and who owns it, going on now. I think it is in the courts. Have to read up on it. The problem with software, take the source code add all the crooked stuff, compile it, run it on the computers. Then remove the crook stuff from the source code and file it, nobody the wiser. In my strong computer days, I remember, a compiled file could not be
de-compiled. Today they could have methods, if not. Then this is a perfect crime.

Another in reference to BOTS.

Sure BOTs playing against other players or what seem to be other players. Todays games it been understood that sometime there are 7 BOTs in a game. Like I have said before, online poker is not the poker the old men think it is. It is now who can make the best BOTs. And this whole thing is never going to stop. It sure is not hard to predict the future of online poker playing.

This is the future or maybe I'm late and could be the present. You got online poker sites like Full Tilt, who I believe is using foul play in their software. There is available BOTs (robot poker playing software), which you can load and it will play the game for you. As I always said, "It is remarkable how good some of these pieces of software play." The next, is the online poker sites to program an additive along with the poker game being on your monitor, there will be software prowling your computer. Looking for the BOT, then installing a set of instruction to change it's playing habits and start playing real loose to lose your money.
Don't laugh, there are strong suspicion now, that Full Tilt prowls your computer. You can read up on this, from the BOT people. There are instructions by the BOT people to change certain files and delete certain file before trying the BOT out on Full Tilt. The BOT has to go into hiding when it is working.

Nice to hear you are hitting "whistleblower." Here a story, if you live in the bush and of course the cabin is on the lake. Fish is your main course of food. Therefore the old timers, dug worms each day and threw them in the lake. Now if hungry stuck, just get one worm and the fishing line and you can have a fresh dinner in matter of minutes. Beware the same can go for this storybook software. Feed the fish, something and for sure there going to be a profit.
I know only too well what you are experiencing. Its happen to me, wow everytime you look at your cards, there is a pair. The flop always produced help to the hand and you feel guilty as the chips roll in. Again beware, it will come to an end. Then instead of 1st best, you start making 2nd best. And there is no money in 2nd best hands.

Another small story "whistleblower." Maybe all this chatter regarding Full Tilt, does some good. The old wagon train saying is "The squawking wheel gets the grease."

rye Oct 4, 2009

This has become more or less just an insane debate. Elliott yes full tilt prowls your system for a bot... this is because they are not aloud to be used. Why do you twist everything into a scandal? Of coarse software can be corrupted or cheated, that doesnt prove that full tilts software is cheating in anyway.... the whole world is run on computers and computers need software to operate... does that mean the whole world and anything on a computer is a scam?... of coarse not. I tried to way into your debate but its obviously not worth even talking about it. I dont need some moronic d- level poker player saying im affiliated with full tilt. Adapt your game, get better and you can start winning. Thats what i did. forget the scandalous talk its totally untrue and completely falls short because nobody can produce even a single shred of evidence of any kind.

whistleblower Oct 5, 2009

My only evidence is what happened to my deposit and my roi. 800 hands in, up $200, from 800 hands into 20,000 hands, profit went to -$600, that is a $800 downswing. The net loss was reviewed and attributed to "coolers" and "setup hands."

My graph looks like this, 45 degree increase after day 1, day 2-week 3, sharp decline at day 2 and leveled off from day 2 to week 3, week 3 gradual slope upwards.

I was able to collaborate with friends at work and folks online who share the same story and the friends dad who "suicides" as he refused to make a corrupt code/program for a online poker site.

The UB/AP scandal cheated online poker players out of millions of dollars, to this day the person has not been named and 31 people connected to the accounts has not been named. The ex chief of the tribe that licenses online poker sites has been connected to the scam.

Having played poker for over 10 years and won numerous live tournaments and is a "winning player" at poker, I know when there is a Conn.

I have produced my evidence that online poker is shady, where is your evidence that is it clean? That is no different than Roger Clemens or Rafael Paulmero lying to the courts saying they never used steroids.

Cheaters will lie to their death until irrefutable evidence is provided.

I love Tom Dwan and I just hope he is, "clean" and not connected to a insider designed to fleece high stake players online professional or amateur of their "fortune." I know Guy Liberte would not be a happy camper.

Online is nothing more than a "simulation" that can be rigged at the houses desire. It's the perfect crime, even if people complain where is the evidence? They own the codes, have the servers running in unregulated places like Costa Rica and get it sponsored by professional players.

It is the perfect crime.

E Elliott Oct 5, 2009

Right off the bat, I want to apologize to "rye" if I have upset you because of some of my posting. I also want to "pat you on the back" regarding your statement agreeing, software can be rigged and Full Tilt prowling your computer looking for BOTs.

Plus you are right, I should not condemn Full Tilt, because other than the bad smell at the table level. I have no knowledge if I'm correct or not. Therefore I want to phrase my concerns in a different way. In bold letters.

USING SOFTWARE TO PLAY POKER FOR MONEY IS VERY DANGEROUS, BECAUSE SOFTWARE CAN BE WRITE AS TO CHEAT YOU OUT OF YOUR MONEY.

This does not only apply to Full Tilt but all the other online poker playing sites, regardless of the game being played.

There is another factor that has to be exposed also. I will explain in detail and a storybook fashion. Lets gather together, rye, whistleblower and myself. We should also recruit the fourth person. I will download one of them poker calculators, (Note, I don't know the name off hand, and I have never used one, but from what I read it works this way. You can enter your hand and then receive back all possible odds of completing the hand.) Install it on my laptop and have it ready to work, sitting beside me. After the pocket cards are dealt, using your cell phone you can pass the information to me, I'll will run all the infor and see who got the best chance of winning. Then in conversation over the cell phone, we can setup the plays to trap other players.

Example, with knowing 8 cards, plus the flop of 3 cards, this makes a total of 11 cards we know about. So if one of the partners needs a 5 or heart to completed his hand, we can get the estimated odds of hitting it and winning. If 4 players don't supply enough infor, then we will recruit the fifth one. We can all split the money in the end.

I'm certain this is happening constantly today. So what chances does an online player stands? I love poker as much as anyone. How many times, I walked a mile in cold weather to play poker. Remember playing as kids for buttons or monopoly paper money, pennies if we had any. Played games like kings and little ones, where kings and your smallest card was wild. Another, twos, sevens and one-eyed jacks where wild. Plus the joker was also used, boy talk about wild time and arguments. But it was part of the game.

As far as I'm concern, online poker is just a scam to steal your money. Following is a real poker game. Went out last week to play, real cards, real players. Got pocket kings, the flop produced an ace and another king for me. I bet, a player raised, I re-raised just small and the player back raised. I folded and the player took the pot. Never did see his hand, but the conversation after was, he looked to confidant to me, which other players also agreed. Online I think I would have been trapped, whose icons don't produce any feeling to study as a human does. Bluffing online is simple and only takes nerve, while in the real flesh, it takes courage plus the ability to act.
So much for this playing online, the human element is a must.

whistleblower Oct 5, 2009

Ever notice the color bar timer under your avatar? If a insider knew the timing of the shuffle, he can pass that info to a "corrupt player" and that player can wait until the appropriate bar/color to light up and then check/bet.

Red=high cards
Yellow=mid cards
Green=low cards or whatever,
heck each bar can represent the actual card and color represent the remaining suits in the shuffle and the pattern can be changed whenever. This is very effective since the site uses continuous shuffle and since packets cannot be sniffed and since one "cannot see the whole cards." The cheater can time his bets accordingly to what he is trying to hit/chase. If you think about how many ways one can cheat online, it's awfully tempting for anyone to make a quick buck. Stealing from folks that don't know any better and patting themselves on the back proclaiming to be great poker players, while they are nothing more than scammers/shysters.

Whoever designed the software would surely allow for some way to go back and play the system and scoop money from folks online, "printing money."

If I had some way to cheat online, I would surely do it in a way where there is no suspicion, heck lose a few thousand or million here and there, knowing you will have all the money in the long run. Use that money in live matches and proclaim self to be one of the best players alive and become a celebrity and challenge other players to matches. I also would have to send half or more of the money I make to the folks feeding me the patterns/codes/whatever that allows me to fleece rich people online.

E Elliott Oct 5, 2009

With great regrets, because of the my love of playing poker. Plus how convenient it is to sit down at your computer and enjoy or at least try to win at the game. Got another story for you, hope it does not bore you.
If I was ask 20+ years ago, during the dos era, to make software to deal cards. Following is somewhat, what would be made.
First a scale would be written,
Numbers 1 to 13 would represent spades, with 1 being the ace and 13 the king.
Numbers 14 to 26 would represent hearts, with 14 being the ace and 26 the king.
Numbers 27 to 39 would represent clubs, with 27 being the ace and 39 the king.
Numbers 40 to 52 would represent the diamonds, with 40 being the ace and 52 the king.
Would ask the computer for the date and time in numerals, which is added together and becomes the seed number.
The seed number is multiplied by itself.
And then using long division, the seed number is divided by 52.
The remainder is checked against the scale and becomes the card.
Using today's date and the time, here goes. 10(month)+ 4 (day) + 2009 (year)+ 10 (hour) + 45 (minutes) + 13 (seconds) = 2091 X 2091 = 4372281 divide by 52 = 840802 (answer) 17 (remainder).
Therefore the 17 would represent the 4 of hearts, by adding the answer of 840802 to the seed number of 4372281, and dividing again by 52 the next card can be calculated.

But the problem with this RNG, one only needs a calendar and a watch to calculate what cards are being picked. This can be cured, by having the seed number entered by a human. Then the card deck order is not a secret because a human knows the order. This takes away the magic and mystery of a real shuffled deck of cards.

Now moving ahead 20+ years, today, brilliant software engineers have made many improvements to my type of RNG. In fact I could never begin to understand it, but one thing still remains. You got to have a seed number to start it all rolling. There is always someone who knows the seed number and the math used and could calculate the order of cards. Once again this takes away the magic and mystery of a real shuffled deck of cards.

Now back into history, a dusty cowboy town, and the saloon with the poker table. With the dealer and the local gambler sitting at the table. Waiting for the cowboys to come into town with their monthly pay in their pockets. The game starts, but this time it a mistake, not cowboys at the table but outlaws. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, drinking moonshine. It is not long before the outlaws realize, they are being cheated. The dealer knows what card is on the top of the deck, and if a good one, deals seconds to the outlaws, holding the top one for his partner the gambler. So there was just two conclusions, neither the cards were marked or the dealer was very good at peaking at the top card. The outlaws need target practise, so they took the dealer and the gambler out back to practise. The dealer and gambler was called CHEATERS.

The moral of the story is this, if they were called cheaters in whose days because they knew what cards are coming, this should give me the licences to call today's online poker sites CHEATERS also. Because they also know what cards are coming.

rye Oct 5, 2009

elliott,

I am honestly starting to wonder if you even play poker at all. You didnt describe any preflop action but the play you made folding your set of kings was possibly one of the worst lay downs of all time. Trust me my friend, if you want to know why your losing at poker... its 100 percent the way you play.. your not good AT ALL ...and if your folding a set of kings on the flop you are the biggest squeezer of all time and will never win.

dale Oct 8, 2009

For 3 years I have been playing at full tilt, and everytime I get close to cashing on a trnmt, I get a bad beat. Yesterday, I had s ak on blind, went all in big blind called with 72, and tripped. He knew he was going to win, would not talk so led me to believe was a house player. No more money on computer poker for me.

whistleblower Oct 10, 2009

Enjoyed another great live session at the local casino, playing 1/2 NL. $200 buy in lasted for 6 hours and tripled up. No fear of players cheating/colluding, playing against bots/house players or fearing the deck is rigged or the RNG/coding is flawed or hacked by insiders or outsiders.

JJ holds against 88 and KQ off suit, guarantee you this hand would have lost online. Made a sick call pre flop, determined the KQ was playing all in isolation against the 88.

My 43 offsuit limped pot big blind flops straight with 652 rainbow versus KK and holds, another hand that would have lost online to runner runner boat or something miraculous. Made my money on the turn with a 3bet and checked on river due to higher straight/flush possibility.

Bluffs worked pre flop and post flop, as players respected table image and board.

Funny how all this happens in 1, six hour session playing just 10 hands versus breaking my pc and mouse at home.

Online is only good for training purposes on the 1cent/2cent tables to develop your own strategy and to use tried tested and proven ones.

My personal spreadsheet data is finally on the up and up since taking those horrible bad beats playing online poker.

Cheers.

whistleblower Oct 13, 2009

Interesting Petition;
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/FullTilt

whistleblower Oct 13, 2009

#

#
on December 29, 2008 at 5:31 pm Bob Smith

Their are many folk out there arguing about if online poker is rigged or not…I wold like to help put this to rest by stating that it is rigged in many different ways. i helped write some of the software for tiltware LLC…while working on the fulltilt site some of the other programmers and i were asked to install programming into the software that would recognize certain players and provide them with unbeatable hands. we were also asked to develope software that would provide what they called the”maximum oppurtunity to bet” which meant that the deals are rigged to deal out alot of good starting hands to alot of players so that the most betting possible would take place on every deal. The deal would then provide a monster flop in which atleast two players would be all in before the river.(ever wonder why nobody ever misses the flop online…because then no one would bet and that is not what fulltilt wants) This keeps the tourneys fast paced and exciting which players love. Fulltilt loves this too, the faster you lose the faster they can make more money off you by having enter another tourney.
There is also another way fulltilt cheats you out of cash with their own personal players. These players are called house players and are fulltime employees of the Fulltilt compnay. If you check some names and their online wins vs. loss records you will often find them with records that are simply unreal. I have seen some of these folks who win over 50 straight sessions without a loss…how can this be possible unless they are working on the inside. They come and go and change their names often but they play in the site with the full adavantage of being able to see all the cards in play and in the deck.
Another programming trick we wrote into the software at fulltilt is the levels trick…this trick takes place when a tournament has been running after the first break. The computer recognizes the different size of each players chip stack and begins to deal out hands in which a small stack will shove all in and a large stack will have a better hand to call with. Have you ever wondered why you get pocekt QQs with 1500 chips and the guy next to you gets pockets KKs and he has 10,000 chips? The answer is simple the site is programmed to get you to play as much as possible. So we programmed the site to eliminate the small stack as quickly as possible so that they can go enter another tourney asap. The site is even prgrammed to adjust the flop for big stacks so that even if the big stack calls your hand with nothing he will end up beating your good made hand by the river. Often times the site will deal you back to back hands with the same cards but maybe different colors or suits..this “glitch” is a sign that the computer is adjusting the shuffle to start elimnting small stacks and allow the tourney to finish quicker.
The sooner a tournament is done the faster fulltilt can have you back at another table spending more money…it is to this sites best interested to eliminate you from tables as fast as possbile. There is no one to regulate how the company manipulates the software to thier own advantage. There is no one to monitor how the company pays out its players and employees. Simply put, giving some offshore account your hard earned cash is simply insane. Thinking that these people arent cheating you out of your money is crazy, the site has many layers of hidden programming all set up to take full adavantage of all types of players from novice to expert.
the main reason i wrote this blog is to expose the fraud that takes place at online gaming site known as Fulltilt poker i was fired three months ago from the company that helped write the software..yes i am bitter and mad but i do fell everyone so know how bad fulltilt is and that is a site built by THIEVES!!

whistleblower Oct 13, 2009

http://rounding.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/full-tilt-leans-towards-big-hands/#comment-1226

E Elliott Oct 13, 2009

Nice piece of work whistleblower. I can't believe these poker sites are allowed to operate.

whistleblower Oct 13, 2009

This Bob Smith confirmed what my friends programmer dad was doing/refused to do before he died of apparent suicide.

There are many loopholes in the legal system, as the legal system does not cover international territories which the internet reaches. The Govts has to work together and ban online poker, with this kind of game/technology human greed will always corrupt it.

The criminals know there is a sucker born every minute and they have the perfect virtual crime going on here, who knows what the profits are being used for? Terrorism? Money Laundering? Nukes? If I was FBI/CIA/NSA/CSIS etc. I would take them down and shut down their money fleecing ways online and throw them all in jail on the basis of funding Terrorism by cheating the public.

Scary how they first steal your money and if they need to use your identity, if you do have money and attempt to cash out they will ask for information about you to help them steal your identity and use it abroad.

Protect yourself and do not play online.

wayne Oct 18, 2009

so why not just stop playing for money?

skitz Oct 18, 2009

Kilgore, you should work for full tilt...you're falating them so much...oh wait, you probably already do work for them. If you haven't noticed the shannanigans on full tilt, you are blind, ignorant, work for them, or a combination the three. I haven't played 40+hours a week regularly on FT and see the most absolutely ridiculous pre flop all in house cleaning on cards that make no sense until the turn and river. It is blatant and it is real. As far as the government involvement in bringing it down, ROTFLMAO. Why when they can reap the benefits by taxing it everybody losing their money. Nothing will change besides me no longer using their site. I'll just go to the casino where I do quite well consistantly. Screw FT

juju bean Oct 19, 2009

i have personally seen somebody use some kind of software, that when they log on to one of these sites, its like they do as an itt administrator, this software permits them to see everybodies cards and what will come on the flop, 4th, and 5th street(only seen it on hold 'em).
i have also heard on the news of this happenning, and also heard that this type of hacking problem has been fixed so nobody can do it anymore. but to think that no one else is still cheating somhow is dumb, no one should ever play online for real money.

cole Oct 19, 2009

I now know how FTP start rolling in the money! I have played poker for over 8 years now and only started playing Full tilt this week and already know the outcome of this ridiculous online scam! With its riduculous off calls and bets. Happened to me quite a few times actually when massive pots are in play and thinking you possibly have the bolt when someone out of the blue calls with nothing hands and end up hitting runners !! The worst experience I had with FTP ( in the space of one week) was in a tournament out of 600 people I made it to the top 50 until the worst bet comes off some idiot ! . eg . The blinds were 200/400 chips I had a stack of around 12,000 chips , I was big blind and hit pocket AA in my hands, I was also big blind, everyone folded excepts for this one fool who had a stack of 24,000 (ended up having J-A off suite) he automatically goes all in on 24,000 , how can somebody and why would somebody want to steal a pot off 400 chips if he knew I wasn't going to call??? But since I had the best hand in poker of course I am going to call that, and wait for it , the flop Ace (diamond) 5(club) 2(diamond) , Still in the lead, next you thing you know it I am out of the tournament , because this scumbag hits runner diamonds and makes a flush with his Jack of diamonds. FTP the Jack of all scams !!!

johnnyb Oct 19, 2009

I used to think everything on Full Tilt was on the level, but lately, and I mean lately, it's just not right. I feel they just want you to buy-in, get deep in a tourney, and then bust you out so you rebuy. If you feel like you are being cheated, you probably are.

It sucks because my opinion of online poker has been changed to the point where I won't be rebuying. I will go back to playing live games instead dumping money into online tourneys where 4 out of 5 times/hour I lget KO'd with my AK against AQ for all my chips.

It's easy to say don't go all in with AK, but I consider myself a tight aggressive player with better results in live tourneys than online over the years.

As they say, something is rotten in Denmark. Maybe Gus Hansen has something to do with it.

E Elliott Oct 19, 2009

I have posted anything on this board for quite a spell. One time there was people who I called "Protectors" who continueously posted material against anything I or other people posted, regarding the facts. Online poker sites uses software and are as crooked as a mountian road. These "protectors" have disappeared since whistleblower posted the damaging posting of Bob Smith. A confession of rigging software for Full Tilt. Now I see a few poster who agree and are not satisfied with what is happening in the online poker world.

There is one more thing I would like to ask posters who believe they have been scammed by such people as Full Tilt. Go the this site which whistleblower as found and posted
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/FullTilt

They have a petition going, declaring the dishonesty of Full Tilt. They are looking for 50,000 signatures, so far (yesterday) 52 people have done it. I did myself yesterday, under another screen name. It simple and only takes 1 minute. Let try cleaning up this online poker scam. It can be done but it takes people who agree, they have been cheated. Once one of these online poker sites get the axe, the rest will pull up their socks and clean themselves up.

C Crane Oct 20, 2009

lets just say im an average poker player, not 2 bad not2 pro. but i have a hypothesis, every 1 thinks its rigged or cheating!!! ive played in 50,000 tourneys and sngs and ive watched players win hand after hand after hand... good for them people! what happens ( I THINK ) is when you register you get a seed - 4 instance 180 person sng 1- 180 and i think the server shuffles up the #s and comes up w/ a #1 seed that player can beat any player there in any allin situation. and 2 get more complicated # 25 seed can beat #s 35 38 46 55 66 79 104 147 165 176 and 180... thats my theory but the #1 seed can beat any person at that tourney so if you ever get the #1 seed play like a retard and just win its simple and alll the other good players just tell your self im good and there cheating and this pooo sucks. after writing this comment im gonna give up online poker after loosing about $20,000 this year IM OFFICIALLY DONE . it was fun pokerstars and full tilt

rye Oct 21, 2009

Your so called "protectors" elliot are just normal people like me. We havent dissapeared after that "special" article whistle posted. Its just not worth the time to argue with insane people who already have their closed minds made up. I read that article your talking about and all i have to say is.....SO WHAT???... some anonymous person from somewhere claims he knows of cheating... who gives a flying F**k? what does that prove?? nothing. Empty claims with no proof of anything. Anybody can make BS claims about anything they want when there in cyberspace under a screen name and nobody knows who there are. Im a winning player so what does that mean? im a cheater to?? Your a classic case of a person who loves to believe in conspiracys. Id love to know your thoughts on area51 the loch ness monster and bigfoot. Your folding a set of kings on the flop because who had a "feeling" your opponent had a set of aces...lol.. your a lousy player not a good one getting cheated. Why do people have to come up with outrageous ways to explain why they loose instead of just looking at the real and DOCUMENTED facts and accepting that their not that good? So what you win at your home games and at your local casino... that doesnt make you a superstar. There is winning players all over the place, real flesh and blood walking talking people... how do you explain that if its all up to computers, hackers, fulltilt and who ever elase you think is stealing all the money??? Instead of anonymous claims from a secret identity on some garbage webpage, why does nobody have any sort of real proof of anything? If EVERYONE is being cheated why has not one single person ever been able to show a legitimate hand history of anything out of the ordinary?? NEVER NEVER NOT ONE SINGLE TIME. Im sorry most players have no idea how to play the game. Almost every person ive ever met that plays poker thinks they are a good player, they all have the same excuses live or online. Its always always always "just card dead" or "some donkey sucked out on me". It doesnt matter where you play in bricks or on computers. People have the same problem in the casino, they see a player who wins over and over and over again and they wont accept that he is better than they are.. hes just always more lucky and hitting hot cards. Im not completely closed to the fact that someone somewhere might be cheating online, but can someone, i dont care who, just one person come up with anything no matter how small to prove something....instead of anonymous postings online....please

whistleblower Oct 21, 2009

Hi Rye,

Here is a interesting article. Fulltilt is being sued.

The 2 poker players, Lary Kennedy & Greg Omotoy, went to a lawyer and sued Full Tilt after getting their funds and accounts frozen. They also accused Full Tilt poker of using bots to increase the luck factor on the poker site (in order to make more money).

http://www.bankrollmob.com/poker-news/20091014/poker-players-sues-full-tilt-poker

The claim states that fulltilt uses bots to play against it's customers .

You maybe a winning player online Rye and maybe not, we have no facts to prove otherwise or to believe you.

The above case is they type of people you encounter online and scary what kind of inside info they know about their ex sponsor. Ironic eh? Cheaters employing cheaters to fleece from us "bad" players. Hey if we are so bad, why do you need to steal from us?

The answer: make money faster, put you on tilt, so you do play outside your A game and deposit more money. It is a deadly snowballing effect.

Do you have courage Rye to post your online username so I can confirm you are indeed a winning player and not some prop house player protecting the cheaters online?

whistleblower Oct 21, 2009

http://www.wikio.com/themes/Lary+Kennedy

whistleblower Oct 21, 2009

PLEASE READ IMPORTANT

http://pokerati.com/2009/10/04/re-yet-another-full-tilt-lawsuit-bots-on-trialcase-summary/

whistleblower Oct 21, 2009

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/fulltilt-froze-my-account-47-grand-41524/

e elliott Oct 22, 2009

Evening;

It is real nice of you whistleblower to post all the links to sites. Sites that contain information to help encourage people to think twice before playing online. I notice a few posting with the same kind of message, quit playing online. I still play online but not for money just for fun, play.
You a good supporter, whistleblower, keep up the good work.

Now for this rye, boy you claim to play poker. You criticize a person for laying down 3 kings, when there is a possible 3 aces to beat. What, you would call, in hope of getting the 4th king. It does not matter what the turn or river brings I can not win unless it is the 4th king.

Calling that hand breaks the most important rule in poker. Controlling the loses, the wins will come. If I did call, it is going to cost me all my chips. No I didn't call, saving my chips for the next hand. Maybe it will be a much easier hand to play. This is called, "management."

E Elliott Oct 24, 2009

Some funny things are happening.
I posted two posting day before yesterday, late evening Oct 22/2009.

Yesterday morning checked for replies etc.
The two posting were gone.

One was on the email I sent to support@fulltilt.com. In it was a copy of Bob Smith posting, asking about it.
Never got a reply, while they replied to all other emails I send, regarding they using crook software. Suspicious?

The second one, regarding the site Pitbull, who has been cheating and now has been caught. Below is a long link to the information, maybe a repair job will be needed to view it.
http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/pitbull-poker-closure-players-demand-legislation-seek-legal-action-5500/

This morning got up, open my computer, and there was two posting. One was from whistleblower for sure. The other from rye???

I just got the opportunity to read a bit, before I had to do some work. Coming back I can't find these two regent posting. They have disappeared.

Question, has this board been bought off??
Will email them to find out.
I also post on 2plus2, I will post my finding or suspicion. It is a shame if one can not trust a board, that money is used to hide the truth.

whistleblower Oct 24, 2009

Yes, my detailed analysis of hands has been deleted. I will repost at the earliest.

whistleblower Oct 24, 2009

I was able to show Rye the multiple bad beats/monster vs monster setups and compared the pattern to another player that felt the same rush of incredible bad luck. I had links to the replay of hands/setups and even showed his graph pattern was very identical.

Win one day, lose big the next, anyways, here is the other person who I found. Feel free to study his graph and hands.

http://www.pokertableratings.com/fulltilt-player-search/isildur1

SETUP/MAXIMUM OPPORTUNITY TO BET PROGRAMMING WORKING
https://www.pokertableratings.com/replayer/index.php?site=fulltilt&id=15534362242&hash=3104692117

CLASSIC SETUP
https://www.pokertableratings.com/replayer/index.php?site=fulltilt&id=15535979751&hash=3105766127

OPPONENT KEEPS CALLING REGARDLESS OF BETS AND BOARD, INCREDIBLE
https://www.pokertableratings.com/replayer/index.php?site=fulltilt&id=15532301506&hash=3103233736

ANOTHER SETUP
https://www.pokertableratings.com/replayer/index.php?site=fulltilt&id=15534978608&hash=3105119841

MAXIMUM OPPORTUNITY TO BET PROGRAMMING WORKING
https://www.pokertableratings.com/replayer/index.php?site=fulltilt&id=15539522688&hash=3107851326

ANOTHER CLASSIC SETUP
https://www.pokertableratings.com/replayer/index.php?site=fulltilt&id=15536077913&hash=3105805959

HILARIOUS INTERNET POKER SETUP WORKING AT IT'S FINEST, notice turn card, if the hands was played out, same outcome all in.
https://www.pokertableratings.com/replayer/index.php?site=fulltilt&id=15533325741&hash=3103959127

They have deleted 2 of my finest posts, I was able to clearly/factually show my bad beats and compared it to another player online. The patterns were identical. This is proof online poker is rigged/corrupt.

whistleblower Oct 24, 2009

The post that was deleted, included the one I just reposted. Hopefully this is not deleted.

whistleblower Oct 24, 2009

In the other post that was deleted.

I was telling Rye, I do not need his help to improve and be a winning player.

As I have facts/spreadsheets showing my winning sessions and showing I am a winning player over time. The only time I have lost money was online.

I replayed a AA vs KK hand in my unlucky day and how the K spiked on the river.

I replayed a 3 way all in KK, QQ, JJ where
I held QQ with $421 behind
opponent KK $26 behind
and opponent JJ $126 behind where the JJ won with a J on the river.

I compared my graph to the one other online player posted above and the graph appeared identical.

45 degree increase, following by a sharp next day decline.

The win to loss ratio was identical

+97K to -450K
comparing to my +$150 to -$600

The losses posted above remind me so much on how I lost my $600 bankroll.

I was telling Rye, I was offended that he offered to improve my game, when I have played for over 10 years and have spreadsheets and data to show I am good at the game and win.

I have been ranked the following also;
PRE-FLOP TIGHTNESS:
You are 2% looser than optimal. Good Work! A+
PRE-FLOP AGGRESSION:
You are 10% less aggressive than optimal. Be a little more aggressive. B+
FLOP AGGRESSION:
You are 17% more aggressive than optimal. Be a little less aggressive. B
TURN AGGRESSION:
You are 0% more aggressive than optimal. Good Work! A+
RIVER AGGRESSION:
You are 4% less aggressive than optimal. Good Work! A+
SHOWDOWN FREQUENCY:
You showdown 0% more often than optimal. Good Work! A+

Overall A

I concluded that online poker was a scam due to my findings/research.

Online you have sites/players cheating electronically. You are potentially playing with a rigged deck, corrupt players on the inside and outside.

whistleblower Oct 24, 2009

My game consists of mixing up starting hands based on position/chip stacks/opponents/table.

Understanding opponents miss the flop 70% of the time, so a 75%-100% bet pot will take down the pot post flop.

Understanding expected values (pot odds > outs ratio) would be good calls.

Understanding implied odds, where if you hit your card, the opponents stack will be yours.

Looking for bluff cards to identify weakness in your opponent and sell them their fear, on the turn or river. Also knowing you cannot bluff, "donkeys" players that do not have a high level of understanding of the game and they story you are trying to sell them.

Understanding you do not need cards to win a pot/game. Playing the opponent and chip stack/fear is very effective.

Going all in as reverse psychology occasional with the nuts will pay out more times than not.

Understanding when to slow play with the nuts off the flop to induce bets/bluffs to maximize value of hands.

Understanding the game that is not rigged is a game of patience and timed aggression. Maximizing your winning hands and minimizing your losing hands over time will make you a winning player.

Whereas if you are losing with the best hand pre flop/post flop and losing to runner runner and miracle cards, you will be a losing player. This happens to the majority of players online. Players get their money in when they are, "good" and lose their bankroll to suckout after suckout and cooler after cooler to real players that will be fleeced later by another newer player or bot/super user.

I will never play another $ of mine online, knowing they are immune to US laws and they are offshore in corrupt places like Costa Rica and 3rd party tested and authorized by some gaming tribe in Canada tied to the scandal of UB/AP. I hope these cheaters get what they deserve.

E Elliott Oct 24, 2009

Got very thing, keep up the good work. By all means, you are playing a good game of poker. You can play my money anytime.

As for the friend "rye" he better use his own money because I would never let him play my money.

The issue regarding Pitbull, tells me, if they can cheat, how many other sites are cheating. My answer, all.

E Elliott Oct 24, 2009

Forgot to mention. I emailed this web site, regarding the disappearance of posting. Will see what the answer will be.

whistleblower Oct 25, 2009

Thanks Elliott,

I agree, if there are no laws and regulations protecting players who play online with real money, the players are at the mercy of the site/software program.

Your funds/accounts can be frozen if by chance you beat an opponent who used a fraudulent credit card or stolen identify.

Your funds can be fleeced by the software to encourage 3 way all ins or by bots/super users who let you win a few hands to make you feel good, but by the time your session is done your bankroll is wiped out. Hoping that you feel you just lost to bad luck and to keep depositing until you have lost everything.

Fulltilt advertises that it is not gambling and that it is a game of skill, why is it that so many skilled players have gone broke on their site?

Answer: The game is a form of gambling and skill and the players are getting tricked into losing their money to sucker hands/setup hands.

In theory we all can sue Fulltilt for our money back if we can make a case we are skilled players and we have lost our money due to "luck" ie. gambling. Their claim would then be null and void and they must admit poker is a form of gambling with chance involved as well.

aadel01 Oct 26, 2009

ok, i am posting this comment, keeping it short and simple however, i have been working on fulltilt as well as others at the request of unnamed individuals, i am a poker player, and i am only one of several people inwhich have worked on the sites to determine problems if any, after an extensive review, fulltilt as well as others, has been shown to be non legit in the fairness of the game, with much research and documented evidence,we have indeed found problems integrated in different areas of which have to do with having a flawed program. cheating within the flawed program does exist on a large scale. Within findings we ourselves have found the ability to take advantage of the flawed program to our benefit and control the rigging of the cards and therefore also finding the ability to control who will win, as one aspect of the research done, proving infact that the cards are not random, as well as the capabilities inwhich the intended rigging of hands can infact be broken into, causing a change in the intended outcome of a hacker. With this being only in part, of the findings within extensive detailed documents , one should not buy into online sites in general, unless you are prepared to spend for enjoyment purposes. The best advise is , to play in the free tournaments and or free tables that multiple sites offer including fulltilt.

aadel01 Oct 26, 2009

To make things clear, i nor any doing the research, have caused any loss to any individuals on fulltilt or otherwise, all work that has been performed, has been done and maintained within the boundaries of the free tables, and on the behalf and concerns of legit players and individuals looking for and into the security and safety of a fair game within online poker sites.

E Elliott Oct 26, 2009

Beautiful said, aadel01,

This kind of information should be posted on other boards. Let the public know.

E Elliot Oct 27, 2009

For anybody who wants to venture out and play poker online for money. Better read this first.
To play for money you have to deposit money, some sites your credit card will work, others it may not. Why I don't know for sure, but its like the banks are trying to control money going to poker sites. Because I guess there is a high percentages of fraud. Beside, once you use the credit card, the banks are letting you make a loan. So I guess they sure would want to know for sure, you are making the loan.

If you successful in using your credit card, which in some sites is swift and fast. Now with money in your poker site's account, you can start playing. Now if you do make money against these rigged poker sites. You face another huge problem.

Getting your money out of these poker sites. There are steady complaints, (Note; read up on this by using other boards, such as 2plus2 and others) regarding making a withdraw. Some people has to wait for weeks. There was some time ago, checks received from Full Tilt, did not clear the bank. Full Tilt made some kind of statement, and gave each one a $100 bonus for the mistake. If your account is with some poker site like Pitbull, who just collapsed last week. There is some debate now as to whether the members will get their money.

The biggest advice, check on the Internet about these three topics, before deciding to play online for money.

The topics are,
1) Get money into your online poker site account.
2) Is the site crooked and has rigged software etc.
3 Get your money out of a online site.

With these constant problems, who would want to play online?

Sean Lind Oct 28, 2009

E Elliot:

The reason you can't use your CC to get money onto an off-shore poker account is the UIGEA.

Thanks to the american government It's illegal for a bank to assist in sending money to an off-shore poker or gambling site.

It had nothing to do with the sites integrity or fraud, it was imply an attempt to "protect" American family values by keeping the sin of gambling out of their homes.

Is it just me who thinks that decisions which will affect an entire country should not be allowed to be made on any religious ideal?

Maybe I'm crazy, but in my mind people should be allowed to choose their own religion, and not have the morals and ideals from someone else's forced down their throat.

whistleblower Oct 28, 2009

Sean with so many stories about cheaters and online corruption/insiders, do you feel online poker game is safe?

Seems every other month there is a site with some story about cheating/scandal.

Most of these sites are created/operated by people who are trained at lying and stealing money from people lol

Sean Lind Oct 29, 2009

Whistle,

This is not really an argument I care to get into.

Personally, yes I feel online poker is safe. Myself and all of my friends trust a significant amount of money to online poker.

That's really all I care to say, I only dropped in here to point out the mistake in Elliot's last post. I feel very strongly against the UIGEA, and believe it should get all the bad press it can.

Not only should Americans be allowed to make the choice to play online poker for themselves, but it would allow a true 3rd party governing body to ensure quality, reliability and most of all accountability of the poker sites and operators.

This is exactly what you want, so I hope you join the cause to bring it about.

whistleblower Oct 29, 2009

Thanks Sean,

Keep up the excellent work!

Cheers,

easywalt Nov 4, 2009

When I decided to drop out of FT, I was down to playing $2-$4 games with a bankroll of about $40. (Yeah, sad...) I discovered that you can't withdraw less than $100. I returned to the small games and built the bankroll to $110. and withdrew the money. The check bounced. They added $50 to my account and apologized. I built that to $250 and withdrew that amount. I'm still waiting to see what happens. How many people drop out with small bankrolls and never get their money? It has to amount to a lot of money.

whistleblower Nov 4, 2009

Oh Gosh,

That is alarming that a check would bounce in that small amount. Makes you wonder, if the, "house/sponsored pros" plays with their money in the bank. I mean how does a online site, not afford to be able to pay $110.

I fear, the money in peoples account on fulltilt does not match the money they have available to pay out if everyone decided to withdraw at once. The same problem happens with crooked banks.

Please let us know the outcome, I am guessing they hope you gamble away the rest before you have a chance to withdraw again.

easywalt Nov 4, 2009

That's my guess exactly. Although it's a tiny amount, as long as you're playing they're receiving a rake and they're betting that you'll eventually lose it all. And if you multiply that insignificant amount by several million...

whistleblower Nov 4, 2009

Yea sounds like a pyramid scheme, the money that goes in, does not match the value/money that comes out.

In theory they can issue everyone $100 credit, as long as nobody decides to withdraw, their rake/rigged RNG can slowly/quickly fleece from their lamb.

Denis Nov 6, 2009

I played 50 FTP tournament with player mob_killer. on FullTilt

He was suspicious lucky and when I said he is too lucky, he answered that he has program for freerolls and FTP tournaments.
I entered with him with top pair All-in, he had draw and he got his hand on turn.
That happened about 15 times. I saw it myself. I continued to watch this game and he won first place.

Its not about only him - its about may be a lot of such players.

And may be he had a lot of luck, but

1) He always was winning
2) He said itself that he has program

May be I too suspicious but may be it worth checking.

thetruthisthis Nov 7, 2009

the truth is only 1 out of every 20 regular poker players ever turn a profit.

i know it does suck when you lose on the river playing online but that the fire you play with.

its so much easier to call with a bad hand online then say a 40/100 live NL game.

also ive played higher stakes vs. lower stake games online and it seems if you are playing for $100 or less people will be more willing to call with crap.

if you play the higher stakes games people are much more likely to throw away Q J then a $11 tournament.

just my 2 cents but if they were really cheating people out of millions or billions of dollars i think the government would step in as thats a ton of potential tax money that country is losing.

anyhow hope im right lol!

Donovan Nov 9, 2009

was playing full tilt poker 3 times within 5 hands had pocket kings each time someone went all in so i called each time lost 1st time k 10 caught 3rd 10 on river second time k 8 caught 3rd 8 on river the last time caught k on flop they put me all in with a j caught queen on turn then ten on river i play poker a lot so used to bad beats but on that site happens way 2 much i hate to complain but with the economy the way it is hate to see anyone else get robbed but if you enjoy miracle suckouts and have money to blow this site is perfect but if you play to win then beware of the river it will get you almost every time way to many 1 card str8s and flushes it would be extremelly hard not to believe its not rigged

Anderson Nov 10, 2009

I recently spent most of this last weekend playing at full tilt and can also attest that I have noticed frequent straights and flushes pulled out on the river with out flush draws. I decided to go ahead and play a sit-and-go 1-table in which I had 10 hands of an ah4c, ac6d, ac2h, ad3c, ah8d, ac9h, ad2h, ah7c, ad5h, ah7d, I went all in after flop of which I only had one other card and obviously I was called out with either aa, kk, qq, or jj. Of these 10 hands I one 7 of them on the river...I'm not saying it is or isn't rigged but it is obviously suspicious and people were getting very angry at me; I would be angry too if I got robbed out of a hand like that.

whistleblower Nov 12, 2009

Interesting post found;

Hey You! Says:
April 5th, 2009 at 7:10 am

As a semi-professional poker player for the last 5 years, I have one thing to say about the subject:

OF COURSE on-line poker is rigged. FullTilt.com is well known as one of the worst sites out there. There is no regulation… no independent verification of deal results and.. EVERY single site on the web uses “bots” (robotic automated players). Just who do you think is going to have an advantage in that situation? At the very least, “bots” are inserted on particular tables to push the rake and increase hand action. At the worst, they are inserted into on-line tournaments to push action and eliminate players in a quick fashion to free up tables (ie computer server resources). Anyone who says this doesn’t exist is just plain WRONG or just naive.

I alway laugh when people say “Why would the poker sites cheat? They make enough from the rake.” That is just a COMPLETELY ridiculous comment. If the last year on WallStreet has taught anyone anything it’s that people who are making money ALWAYS want more money. And they don’t care how they get it. It’s human nature. The on-line sites operate under the same business structure (if you can call it that).

I recommended a book called “American Roulette”, written by casino cheat Richard Marcus. A couple of years ago I ran into him in Atlantic City and had the chance to ask him about poker cheating. His answer stunned me. He said ABSOLUTELY online poker cheating goes on, he knows guys who do it. And “bots” are used all over the place. He said the larger poker sites are somewhat safer and usually the lower limits are kind of safe but he said he would never wager a single penny online because so much cheating is going on. He also said it goes on in live poker and even in tournaments such as the World Series of Poker and WPT events. He said a lot of it is teams of 2, 3, 4 at a table that use elaborate signals to tell each other what they have and they all play accordingly. Cards are also sometimes marked with a special solution that can only be seen if you wear special contact lenses and the stuff evaporates in about 30 minutes so it leaves no evidence. He told me that there are a number of top poker pros that used to be casino cheats like him and he’s known them for years. He wouldn’t give me any names though.

FYI - He wrote another book called “Dirty Poker” that details poker cheating. It’s available on Amazon if you are interested. It’s a pretty interesting read.

Save your money. On-line poker will never be safe until it is regulated (and taxed) by the federal government. Even then I’m not completely sure.

whistle Nov 12, 2009

Want to hear something funny? I hit the withdraw button to see the options and I lose the remainder of the bankroll to, you guessed it bad beats lol. With the remaining dollars, played small stakes and hit the deposit button for giggles (did not deposit). I immediately got KK, I left that deposit window open without depositing and the number of premium hands and winning session increased lol.

Can it be that obvious, they do not want you to withdraw no matter what (as they do not have the money to pay out everyone if they did) and only want you to deposit.

I hope the feds take these criminals down, they taxes they are avoiding can help rebuild the struggling economy.

whistleblower Nov 12, 2009

Maybe this is how all online players "win"

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5354/1000621h.jpg

Where are all the fulltilt defenders now claiming online poker is safe and cheat free.

The Feds are coming, all you crooks are going to jail.

Sean Lind Nov 12, 2009

Whistle,

I replied to this same comment on the other article. But since I'm already typing here I might as well reply here as well:

you need to take a second look at that picture.

Take a look at the top left corners of the table. See how "stand up" is greyed out?

That means the person on that computer is not actually sitting at the table. This is someone observing the tables with a few photoshop tricks thrown in.

It's impossible to be at a table with "stand up" greyed out.

So I'm not going to argue with you about anything being rigged or not, but I will say that that photo is a fake. Sorry bro.

There's a few hundred posts talking about that photo on a two plus two thread called "Who is Isildur1 on Full Tilt"

Also the program "Floribus" is a poker bot, meaning it plays poker for you, it doesn't know what your opponents hole cards are.

whistleblower Nov 13, 2009

Thanks Sean for the clarification.

I just find it odd, that a unknown player would beat out one of the best online and is adamant on playing him every day with no fear or hesitation

1) Real poker, with Durrrr being out played/out lucked and beaten by a unknown swede player at this time.

2) Chip dump, for unknown reasons.

3) Hacking at the highest levels beyond our understanding

4) Publicity stunt to attract players to Full Tilt.

I just hope #1 is true for the sake of the game itself.

R.U. Sirius Nov 14, 2009

To all who suspect....

I am an investigative reporter, columnist, and feature writer. "Kilgore Trout" - perhaps "rye" as well - is a troll working for one of the online sites in question.

If you follow politics on the Internet at all you will see "advocates" for corporations and government officials who use exactly the same type of verbiage as the "Trout" person. They always use personal attacks to obfuscate the issue which gets people off track in the comment section, as they feel they must spend time refuting the attacks made by fish like "Trout" (all puns intended).

Additionally, there is no way anyone who is an innocent in a situation like this would spend so much time & energy "refuting" facts and blindly siding with the companies in question unless they are associated with them.

The best thing you can do is carry on your conversation as if he/she does not exist. Don not respond to their comments as it is a waste of time.

Andres Nov 14, 2009

Hello I do agree that there is cheating on full tilt poker on the high stakes. if you watch this games you could notice the miracle hands that come out on the river when Isildur1 is playing. when he gous all inn he always winns. I saw him going all inn 2times with nothing and hitting a streight o the river. Am really sure he is cheating And if you need more proof go to pokertablesrating.com were you can check players statistics.there youll see that Isidur1 has a 100% winning rate and the maximun agreetion rates. that means that he is been super agreesive because he knows the cards. JUST CHECK HIM OUT ON FULL TILT AND YOULL SEE FOR YOUR SELF.

Kenny Bad Beat Nov 15, 2009

I've DELETED Full-Tilt s/w from my computer today. I dont care what some people say..MY EXPERIENCE is something is not 100% honest at that site. I can play good poker.! I put in $300 to FT. Played for 2 months.. NOW I Have ZERO $$ in that account. For those idiots who say, "well online u get MORE HANDS per Hr..so more bad beats.." I SAY MORE HANDS PER HOUR === MORE WINNERS WHEN U PLAY correct strategy.!! I played ONLY AA, Ak,Aq, KK, QQ, JJ.! ONLY these hands.!! FOR 2 MONTHS>!! yes i'm patient.! AND CONSISTENTLY.. got beat on RIVER by some jackasss..with 4-9 off suit.! So say what u like about FT,etc,, I WONT PLAY online anymore.!! TOO Many River cards win over GOOD hands.! You;'ll Never change my mind about this.. C Ya.!

luci Nov 15, 2009

Agreed, the only people that win are bots or new players who later get cheated by super users/bots or newer players. The program does not allow you to build a roll, it is designed for you to keep depositing, daily, weekly, monthly so the owners can build their bankroll and cheat at live and online poker. Enjoy stealing while you can, sooner or later you guys will be caught and pay the ultimate price.

What Odds Nov 15, 2009

Good to see this thread going. I'll leave a few thoughts.

The reason these discussions don't last on mainstream forums (2+2 etc) is because they either get deleted or people berate the original poster that much that the conversation becomes two people insulting each other and the thread gets banned.

The problem with FTP is they have defense in that they can say anything is possible as every hand is random. So we as players can NEVER prove anything, but we must vote with our feet. Commone sense alone prevails.

I gave up on FTP back in Jan 2009 and have never looked back, I'm a winning player at 9 other sites and have now cleared 9 full bonuses+ won money at each site.

I am a NL50 reg at my main site now.

My problem with FTP in cash games isn't the bad beats. I've played 300,000+ hands on that site and my all in EV over that time was eaxctly to expectation. The rigged hands would be far too easy prove otherwise.

The problem comes in the form of coolers- so you'll get QQ, 65bb player 3 betting you 25% of the time, he 3 bets as expected, you 4 bet him and he shows AA. Loose players showing up with the top end of their range all the time and it happens EVERY day.

It just isn't possible but you can't prove anything. You'd need some serious know how to actually generate some kind stats as there are just so many variables.

Using HEM, I looked for various spots and I can say that when I filtered for the following situations, my worries were confirmed-

ALL IN ON FLOP

EQUITY HELD AT TIME OF ALL IN 60-69.99%

I LOST 64% OF THE TIME.

WHEN I FILTERED FURTHER FOR ALL IN VS AN OPPONENT'S DRAW- OPEN ENDED OR FLUSH THAT HELD 30-39% EQUIT RANGES, THE DRAW HIT OVER 60% OF THE TIME.

I am convinced FTP runs house bots that push these draws and hit well more than expected to make you tilt and also to plain out bust you.

My all in EV balanced overall though, and I found some pure manipulated pots- for instance- 3 bet AA, player calls with T9o. Flop comes 784- so my equity at the time of the all in will be 50/50- he has played a hand terribly but flopped a coin flip- which I win way more than expected, namely to balance the overall all in EV to make everything look 'random'.

Anyone with a big sample can use these types of filters and see areas where you get exploited.

There will always be people who come out of the woodwork to defend these sites.

Take it from me, solid, tight, aggressive and positionally aware poker will fail you at FTP because bad players will call with crap and make more hands than they should overall.

Another useful filter for HEM users- THIS IS THE ICING ON THE CAKE REALLY-

FILTER FOR

RAISED PRE FLOP

FLOPPED TWO PAIR, TRIPS, SET, STRAIGHT OR FLUSH. (BOTH HOLE CARDS USED).

FILTER FOR POTS THAT WENT TO SHOWDOWN...IF YOU CAN DO THAT AND HONESTLY COME ONE HERE AND SAY FTP IS RANDOM THEN YOU EITHER WORK FOR THEM, OR ARE PLAIN STUPID.

MY WIN RATE IN THESE SPOTS OVER 300,000+ HANDS IS OVER HALF WHAT IT IS AT 9 OTHER POKER SITES. YOU FLOP A SET, OPPONENT TURNS A GUT SHOT, YOU FLOP TRIPS, OPPONENTS TURNS A FULL HOUSE, IT JUST GOES ON AND ON AND MY MASSIVE HEM DATABASE SHOWS THAT PLAYERS WILL COOLER YOU IN THESE SPOTS OVER TWICE AS MANY TIMES AS THEY SHOULD. ((ACTION POTS)).

whistleblower Nov 15, 2009

Great post, What Odds.

My data confirm the same findings.

Any player looking to invest time and money into online poker should review the above posts.

whistleblower Nov 15, 2009

Pretty Disgusting, makes you wish horrible things to happen to the owners/designers.

http://www.thedoverpro.com/poker-action-flop.htm

Ervinsm84 Nov 15, 2009

The amount of idiocy in these comments is mind numbing.

Whats more mind blowing is the logical fallacies that keep being repeated. Namely, that bc more people believe something to be true means its true. Stop and think for a second. At one point, the whole world thought the earth was flat. Guess what, that doesnt make it true. Majority does not = truth and has little validity given the uneducated responses thus far.

Also, go check out www.tableratings.com Go ahead, search my name. Ervinsm84 on there. So i guess im just luckier than everyone else right? Almost 200k hands (truly not even that much volume but enough to know if youre a winner) and ive just magically won money consistently?

Most of the poeple complaining about bad beats, are probably mtt'ers that wait till they get 15bbs, raise with 99, get reshoved on by AQ and lose a flip. #1 people, <40bb poker is NOT POKER. The amount of luck involed in a field with the average stack size of 30bbs is astronomical. Please stop spewing lies about how FTP and Stars are rigged.

What Odds Nov 15, 2009

Ervinsm84 says-

"The amount of idiocy in these comments is mind numbing."

So we have confirmation of the first phase people resort to when they disagree- they say we are idiots.

This is why I am making this my last post.

I've posted filters for HEM for any player with a good cash game sample (mine is 300,000+) that will show you will get coolered twice as often on FTP when you raise pre flop and FLOP a big hand (two pair+).

Now either my win rate in these spots on 9 other sites is rigged for me to win twice as often as normal, (on 9 sites my win rate for the filter is +1,300bb/100-1,350bb/100) or those results are actually normal and it is FTP that is messed up.

No need to insults, I've posted filters for any cash game player with stats at various sites to be able to check for themselves and make their own minds up.

That is all.

whistleblower Nov 16, 2009

Ervinsm84,

I reviewed your stats and you are a break even/losing player. You have to factor in rake and time, the only person winning here is the house. You should be upset that you are not at least double the rake by now, those hands you lost while ahead and being sucked out on and losing those coin flips costed you thousands. I would stick to the local casino if I were you.

LOL Nov 16, 2009

whistleblower Why would you post a link to an article with makes a blatant error in the opening paragraphs:

"Cards dealt on the online casinos are NOT randomly dealt. A true random deal is mathematically impossible"

Considering this is an absolutely incorrect claim, why would assume anything else the guy writes is accurate?

geoff Nov 17, 2009

To give any justice to vicious online beats and online poker paranoia that I undeniable have, anyone who watched the 2009 main event's final table will find a full summary of the jack asses that come up on top in the game, namely the winner, Joe Cada. The final table was a sorry sight for poker's sore eyes, and it sure as hell didn't motivate me to get back onto any online tables. Hey Full Tilt Poker, can I please pay you to sit stealthily for hours so that I can be sent home by another moron raising sh*t kicker hands and being blessed with nine lives for his baffling decisions, please?

I mean I think FTP is rigged hands down. The easiest stats for them to keep in my eyes is the number of account deposits. They see a user name with plus 30 deposits, they're going to exploit that person on the tables, because when will they stop putting money back in honestly? That's they're bread and butter.

There are a lot of fishy things during my three years on the site. For me a reoccurring event is that the site favors chip leaders with the right cards most noticeably at the end of tournaments.

I don't have any fancy stats or standard deviations or anything but I went to las vegas last month and took down a tournament at Cesar's, it was awesome. And it solidified one thing for me, FTP is just straight up sodomizing one defenseless poker dreamer at a time.

You're telling me if you ran an online poker site you wouldn't dip your hands into peoples stacks? I mean you would literally need baby jesus running this shit if you were to ever think that it wasn't being tampered with. And there's not one saint in gambling I can tell you that for sure.

I love poker, but I won't do it online ever again.

rye Nov 18, 2009

odds... you point out that you people are always called "idiots and morons" in these threads. Why is it that anyone that believes online poker is legit, you conspiracy people have to assume that were working for someone or are getting paid to defend an online site? is that not the same type of casting on people that you seem to find offensive? I do not work for any online website or am i affiliated in anyway with any poker site or casino at all. Im just a poker player who finds your storys of rigging in the world of poker ridiculous because i win online consistently. I gave up on this forum but your post from earlier saying that you have a 300,000 hand sample showing irregular variance caught my attention. If your interested i would love to review your hand history do some tests and see for myself. If your interested let me know.

ervinsm84 Nov 20, 2009

whistleblower:

Wrong. I am not a breakeven/losing player. While tableratings doesnt track 100% of hands, im a 4ptbb/100 which at my limits yields about 8$ per 100 hands coupled with playing about 600 hands an hour + rakeback + bonuses works to about 50$ an hour.

Those #'s account for rake. Thats about 12k profit at small stakes over 200k hands . That is not "oh i wont 12k" but the rake makes it less. No. I won 12k including having the rake taken out. Rather, if the rake wasnt taken out, id be up even more than 12k.

Trust me, ive ran all the #'s and I just wish people would stop spreading lies. I have no affiliation with this website or any other.

Oh and i get rakeback (27% of what i generate in rake) plus the regular bonuses.


If anyone truly believes the sites are rigged and have proof (large databases from HEM or pT3) with statistical evidence (realistically, just go www.tableratings.com which should have enough) I welcome you to message me on aim or skype at the sn ervinsm and would love to see this. OR you can email me your proof at ervinsm@yahoo.com.

Frankly, i think its all lies.

As far as im concerned, the only cheating going on has nothing to do with random number generators and the software, but rather the occasional rogue group of players who play together at the same table, or players multiaccounting. Otherwise im pretty confident that the software isnt rigged.

whistleblower Nov 21, 2009

ervinsm84,

These are not lies and many cheating experts have confirmed identical findings. Here is a repeat post of another insider.

Ask yourself this question, if you owned a online poker site and needed money fast what would you do? The owner can come in and open the cashier till anytime and replace the money with "bad beats" or "coolers" nobody would be any wiser and the money would not be missing.

As a semi-professional poker player for the last 5 years, I have one thing to say about the subject:

OF COURSE on-line poker is rigged. FullTilt.com is well known as one of the worst sites out there. There is no regulation… no independent verification of deal results and.. EVERY single site on the web uses “bots” (robotic automated players). Just who do you think is going to have an advantage in that situation? At the very least, “bots” are inserted on particular tables to push the rake and increase hand action. At the worst, they are inserted into on-line tournaments to push action and eliminate players in a quick fashion to free up tables (ie computer server resources). Anyone who says this doesn’t exist is just plain WRONG or just naive.

I alway laugh when people say “Why would the poker sites cheat? They make enough from the rake.” That is just a COMPLETELY ridiculous comment. If the last year on WallStreet has taught anyone anything it’s that people who are making money ALWAYS want more money. And they don’t care how they get it. It’s human nature. The on-line sites operate under the same business structure (if you can call it that).

I recommended a book called “American Roulette”, written by casino cheat Richard Marcus. A couple of years ago I ran into him in Atlantic City and had the chance to ask him about poker cheating. His answer stunned me. He said ABSOLUTELY online poker cheating goes on, he knows guys who do it. And “bots” are used all over the place. He said the larger poker sites are somewhat safer and usually the lower limits are kind of safe but he said he would never wager a single penny online because so much cheating is going on. He also said it goes on in live poker and even in tournaments such as the World Series of Poker and WPT events. He said a lot of it is teams of 2, 3, 4 at a table that use elaborate signals to tell each other what they have and they all play accordingly. Cards are also sometimes marked with a special solution that can only be seen if you wear special contact lenses and the stuff evaporates in about 30 minutes so it leaves no evidence. He told me that there are a number of top poker pros that used to be casino cheats like him and he’s known them for years. He wouldn’t give me any names though.

FYI - He wrote another book called “Dirty Poker” that details poker cheating. It’s available on Amazon if you are interested. It’s a pretty interesting read.

Save your money. On-line poker will never be safe until it is regulated (and taxed) by the federal government. Even then I’m not completely sure.

whistleblower Nov 21, 2009

http://rounding.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/full-tilt-leans-towards-big-hands/#comment-1226

Judge for yourself.

AJ Nov 21, 2009

Yes i have logged and counted over 100 thousand plus hands, the full tilt poker software is not random cards. You can count for yourself and you will see that 28 - 38% of all hands dealt are four card deals from the dealer. This is not an opinion, not a guess and mathematics do not lie. This is fact and if you count the hands for yourself you will see that the dealer is dealing 4 cards to the flush, straights and full houses but mostly 4 cards to the straights and flushes more than one out of every four hands. If you bet the dealer on this site you have a better chance of winning then you do if you play conventional methods. Try it and see for yourself. it is a suck out site that is designed to get as many hands in as fast a time as possible. LIKE I SAID, MATHEMATICS DO NOT LIE....

For Serious Nov 21, 2009

I don't get this though

If FT rigs boards with "maximum opportunity to bet", then it makes no sense for them to do that for high stakes.

Max rake on tilt is $3, so that needs a $60 pot.

This means if you're playing $5/$10 NL, every pot will be max rake, regardless of how much action. So are they just rigging small stakes?

Did any of you even think about this?

whistleblower Nov 22, 2009

For Serious,

It goes back to funneling money to their bots in tournaments and cash games, also to their inside users/house players.

With no regulation or 3rd party police, the online world is their oyster.