Comment(s) on this article

stuu Jul 7, 2008

5 bad beat in "all in" situation in a row--------Yes, its rigged.
If I am 9:1 dog then I should win 9 times and lose 1, yet I win about 30%.
Am I out of Luck?
Maybe,but why other good players have same winning rate(of maximum 50%)
And Why AA,KK,QQ wins 50% of time?

Yes, rigged.
No excuse.

Sean Lind Jul 8, 2008

First off Stuu, if you're a 9:1 dog, it means you'll lose 9 times and win once (that's why it's called being a dog).

Secondly the statistics only count for AA vs random hand, with no betting taken into account.

If AA is 80% to win against one random hand, you should win 80% of the time. As soon as you add a second random hand you're 4:1 against two people, so you're 4:2, or 2:1. You're not only 66%.

Plus, you have to realize that even though a coin is 50% to land on heads or tails, it could land on heads 100 times in a row, even after that it's still only 50% to land on tails.

If you lose 8 hands in a row where you're 90% to win, the next time you play it there is still a 10% chance that you're going to lose.

People seem to think that once they've lost a few times, they should be invulnerable. As for are you out of luck? read this article here - http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/the-mathematical-truth-some-players-have-to-run-bad

Dan Irish Aug 11, 2008

ROTFLOL
Don't you just LOVE all these folks who say, "online poker isn't rigged because I SAY it's NOT!"
Gosh we can ALL feel good now! I bet those are the SAME STANDARDS of the Nevada Gaming Commission.
Why yes Mr. New Casino Owner if YOU say you're not rigged that's PROOF enough for me!

ted Nov 22, 2008

i play alot of online poker and alot of poker in tourneys and with freinds it seems that online poker is way faster and maybe thats the prob but its hard to swallow when im playing online tourneys and i get starting cards like AA and KK and QQ and get beat night after night by 2,6 10,2 and other rags maybe im unlucky .online players seem to know that good starting hands dont mean anything online . also most of the tourneys that they run on just about any site is usually done by a certain time it makes u wonder if the comp is deciding the winner before the hand is dealt or they are trying to get the tourney over you feel theres no way that it can be random its just to diffrent playing online and playing in person and something else about online poker most of the time when u have a made hand and u try to trap 4 some reason out of 10 hands my opponent will hit runner runner and hit a higher full house or hit his strfait when i have a set things along those lines i mean, it happens thats why its called gambling but things happen online its like watching jamie gold when he won the wsop main event what he did was unreal winning all those hands and it will prob never happen again but online u see it night after night tourney after tourney and its not just me its other players in the tourneys its like it should be called luck holdem if its so random how can i take the same bad beat 3 timmes in one week .one time online i got pocket AA 3 times wthin 5 hands
i won one time all in and took bad beats the last two times to put me out of tourney the next night the same thing happened again except it was kings and to top it off my opponents beat me with rags 2,10 like that only one time was one of the other players starting hand QQ and he hit trips thats understandable
but its just unbeleivable well even when i win sometimes i find myself appologising 4 the bad beat that i win with i beat people more with bad beats than when i think i have them trapped or im actually ahead of the person when the flop hits i have not played a online tourney yet where i could say that i have honestly been outplayed u just have to wait your turn for the comp to decide its your time to win u can be a fish and be an aggresive player on the net and u will be rewarded as a matter of fact i have and usually do good in tourneys when I play like a maniac it just seems like it already has decided who wins the hands. Most of the time when something seems unreal it is unreal or seems to good to be true its not true. poker stars is the closest site to being random that i have played on the rest like absolute ultimate bet, full tilt ,sportsbook.com,and especially bodog I took bodog off my comp. in gambling you take risk but for the guy up top talking about being a loosing player, if your in a poker room and your playing cards like 2,10 or 5,J 3,9 all in pre flop you will loose your but off especially if your opponent has AA KK and high startging hands like that but online the 2,10 5,J and 3,9 hand players are your big winners and tourney champs explain that 4 me mr dont worry about rigged games and they are not out playing u they are out drawing u every time either its rigged or they are kin to jamie gold.

dan Nov 25, 2008

i too have seen unbelievable things,

i play(ed) hu sng, and in the last 4-5 days i've lost about twenty 70% or more favorite all in. i never won once when i was a 30% or below favorite. (i always check pokerstove for the %). most of the time i was the chip leader, or we were about even.

i've heard people saying the software is designed to favorite players with lower chip counts, to allow fish to survive longer and pokerrooms to make lots of more money with rake.

i'll try to play cash...
let's see what happens...

zyg0tic Nov 25, 2008

So you guys know that the poker site doesn't get any more "rake" by helping the short stack in a tournament right?

In fact, helping the short stack would make the tourney last longer, so it gets less rake. So the site is actually costing itself money by making the short stacks hit more luck?

Why would they spend time and money to develop software that will lose them money? It doesn't even make sense.

as for 2-10 beating AA, it happens 17% of the time, that's almost 1/5. It's not some unbelievable oddity, it happens, get over it.

highxLANDxer Dec 8, 2008

Trust your gut feeling with online poker being rigged. Only stupid people think other wise. Watch dogs are paid to throw doubt into the scene, constantly confusing those stupid enough to believe them.They are everywhere responding to comments just like this. These sites are only doing it for 1 thing! To suck as much money as possible out of the customer. Slowly but surely these online poker sites will be exposed for what they are. Every customer can help stop these online crimes by just not playing online poker. Get off your computers and play where they cant cheat you. ps. Do not feed the trolls! They feed on your savings.

highxLANDxer Dec 8, 2008

The intention was to make it clear to you the war has just begun. Game far from over KMA

fuck the shills Jan 16, 2009

UB proved that greed runs deep. There is no doubt if you play online now you are being cheated. Do not believe any of the crap you see on site like this that has an interest in keeping you losing money online. Until a real gaming commission can investigate and regulate online gaming keep your money in your pocket.

ford Jan 23, 2009

The ones who claim that on line poker isn’t rigged, and that we’re just a bunch of sore losers who cannot play poker, are the real losers. It is so obvious to anyone with the slightest mathematical sense that on line poker is rigged. There are imho two ways (maybe more) the poker sites (read pokerstars imc) rig the game: Favourising the new/bad players and favourising the bigstack.

I am not a poker pro and will probably (for sure) never be, but in 2007 and 2008 my officialpokerrankings stats have put me in the top 2% and 9% respectively, so I know how to play poker and have a nice financial supplement to my steady job income. However, in 2006 when I started playing poker, I didn’t have a clue when it comes to playing poker. Even so I managed to boost my initial $100 deposit up to an “impressive” $1800 bankroll in less than two weeks - playing $22 sng’s. I thought: Wow, what will this come to, this is so easy. I just couldn’t lose. A week later it was all gone.

I have reviewed some of my earliest hand histories, and I am truly amazed. 1. I play so bad, 2. I get dealt incredible hands, 3. I suck out big time. AA eight times in my first three sit’n'go’s, runner runner straights/flushes, smaller pairs that crack overpairs. I could hardly lose a hand if my life depended on it. I had no concept of poker, but I thought I was sooo good.

Therefore the downfall hit me so much harder. I wasn’t dealt all those great hands anymore. My A7 didn’t suck out on AK. And my pre flop all ins with pocket threes didn’t seem to work anymore. The fact is: I was lured into the intizing world of on line poker. And my slump was just bad luck, I was sure.
I was almost $4000 down until I had learnt enough basic poker strategy and until I started breaking even.

My point is: The poker sites give you every possible advantage you can think of when you start playing, so that you wont lose everything immediately and quit the game for good. You have felt the sweetness of winning, and you’ll keep on playing even though the harsh realities of your real poker skills eventually strike you. Of course the advantage given to the beginner isn’t restricted to that. The genuine poker donk who hasn’t got a clue has to get some aid cardwise in order for him to fell that he still has game.

Next endgame/bubble play your aces are beaten by a pot committed player with T4os look up your opponent’s stats. 9/10 times he is a big time losing player. Yeah yeah, I know pocket aces aren’t unbeatable, but when it happens too often, there is a pattern. In a recent sng I was all in 11 times (3-handed and in the money) vs. one particular player. All coinflips with noone more than 60% favourite. I lost all of them! I know that stranger things have happened, but added to the fact that he had absolutely no idea of how to play poker, and that he had sucked out throughout the tourney, it seems strange. He was in the bottom five percent on opr, but Pokerstars had decided that he was to win now - at any cost. Now you ask yourself how I could lose eleven all ins. Well, he was so weak/tight that I stole his blinds with any hand, and he only called me when he had a decent hand or when his stack forced him to call.

Letting the big stack win: Well, the sorry people (and/or poker site employees) who claim that poker isn’t rigged always argue that there is no reason to do it. They say that favourising the big stack will eliminate the small stack who will leave the table and thus wont pay rake anymore. That may be true when it comes to ring games - I am not a cash game player, but in sng’s and mtt’s there is every reason to get people eliminated as fast as possible. The more players who exit the tourneys asap the more players will enter new tourneys. I know that regulars at Stars know what I’m talking about. It is unbelievable the amount of bad beats you are delt by the big stack if you are short.

Other strange things happen at Pokerstars. In a recent mtt, I wasn’t dealt an ace in 72 (seventytwo!) hands. Not ONE single ace. I dont know the probability of that happening, but I’ll suppose it’s 1/xxxxx. Yeah now give me your arguement that we play a lot of hands on line, so we can’t compare it to brm poker. Rubbish! Improbabilities that you wont see in a lifetime of playing live poker won’t become probable just because you play more hands per hour on line. I don’t multitable and I don’t play 20-30 hours a week, but I have seen enough weird stuff to last me a lifetime.

Why don’t you just stop playing on line if it is so rigged? Well, I make money nevertheless. Just not as much as I should.

Mark my words: In less than two years one or more of the biggest poker sites will be scandalised because their randon nummer generator will be exposed as not being so random anyway.

Ps. I have flopped five royal flushes in three years of playing. Pretty good huh? Possible - yes, probable - no!

Pps. Please don’t give me your variance nonsense. Yes, variance is for real, and it’s cruel, but the obvious cheating at pokerstars has nothing whatsoever to do with variance. The sad thing is that now I’ll get flamed by ignorants, people with no understanding of numbers and probabilities, players who wish to believe and pokerstars employees.

GG GL

zyg0tic Jan 23, 2009

Your logic is clearly flawed:

"T4os look up your opponent’s stats. 9/10 times he is a big time losing player"

This is absolutely true, but then again, who else but a big time losing player will push T4os? How often does a winning player push, or call a push with that? Everytime your aces win, are you checking the stats on the other players? The answer is a no, you only check when you lose to a ridiculous hand, and the only players who play ridiculous hands are bad players. This makes you feel like you only lose to bad hands from bad players, it's faulty logic.

Secondly, you say that you didn't get a single ace in 72 hands, and that will never happen live.

In live poker I have had:
12 four of a kinds in one month
gone 20 hours of play (two full 8 hour sessions, and halfway into my third: approx 600 hands dealt) without ever getting a top 10 hand. In that stretch, the best hands I got were three pocket pairs, all below 10.
I've had two four of a kinds within 30 hands of each other.
I've had the same hand (including suits) dealt to me four times in a row.

This stuff happens, that's why it's known as a "random shuffle". If you always got an ace one in every five deals, it wouldn't be very random at all now would it?

Just because the probability says something should happen ever x number of times out of a hundred, doesn't mean it ever will happen in your lifetime, that's a mathematical fact.

paulo Feb 6, 2009

well I have been taken 4 many hundreds of dollars at 2 poker sites one as i was righting this note had QQ and lost KQ diamonds so today i will finish my chips and online poker.

Mike Feb 23, 2009

It is defo rigged, and the only thing that keeps me and other people who believe the same as me from being able to prove it is obviously lack of evidence. I would love to have a team of people with knowledge about how this random generator works and tell me if its true, but thats never going to happen.

The matter of the fact is that with online poker you do seem to see a vast amount of the so called monster hands, and stupid calls being rewarded by taking down huge pots. I played at partypoker, full tilt and pokerstars and I dont really trust any of them. I left those sites and started playing Betfair poker which isnt mainly desinged for poker but its ok (still rigged tho) I acctually make money on online poker and I seem to not loose much but the probablities of some hands I have seen online are just crazy.

I am just giving my humble opinion, I will probably never visit this article again so please dont waste your time on giving me 10.000 explanations on how what I said isnt 100% correct.

All i can say is damm the day i wasnt on the bad bead jackpot when my four of a kind 10's lost to a runner runner straight flush.

Kris Feb 24, 2009

I quit playing for 3 years online because I started getting suspicious. I've been playing for 9 years, weekly live rings and monthly tourneys at home.

Now I've had bat beats; we all have. It's part of the game. I really don't mind losing to a suck out from time to time, after all, I want to be on the positive side of that from time to time. And my friends say I have the patience of Jobe.

Anyway, I had a string of beats online that just defied logic or seemingly possible odds. And it was after months of a pretty good run. I said to myself, "this is how they get you". So I pulled out my remaining dough and took the hiatus.

Fast forward to today. Apparently, once a sucker, always a sucker. Bought back into Pacific Poker. Been playing for 3 days, and I've seen @ 850 hands play out. AA 19 times (insane really), considering all the hands that were folded before river. AA won 4 times, never heads up.

Getting beat by the most insane suck outs you have ever seen; hands that should have been folded before they were even dealt.

And I, of course was on the receiving end of 2. Now 1 of them hit 9 Q turn river to fill out K J 10 staight (was holding K/10). I'll chalk that one up to a stupid call on his part considering our positions and stacks but it paid off for him. The other, is beyond the pale

I'm at a 25c/50c NL $50 max buy ring table. Big stack, who is also dealer has $73. I have $52. Small Blind raises to $2. I'm Big blind and I reraise to $3.50, called by both. (I have AA). Flop comes 9d 5c 2h. Small checks, I raise $9.50, dealer calls, Small folds. Turn is 2s. I go all in, and he calls. He has 5d 6d, and hits the 5h.

This is the type of BS that got me off online poker in the first place. I just forgot how ridiculous it was. I'm afraid to bet any winning hand. The suckouts are simply over the top.

You see, it's not bad players getting taken. It's decent players doing the right thing, time after time, getting f****d over.

Zyg0tic Feb 24, 2009

AA against multiple players usually = a dog against the field but a favorite overall. This means you're expected to lose more frequantly than you win, but ANY good player will make a lot of money in the process.

Just because you're dealt AA doesn't mean you're going to win.

I just read a blog on this site where in a live tournament a player flopped quads vs the flopped full house. If this was online you'd all be yelling "rigged!". It happens, stop blaming bad luck, and bad play on some imagined doom switch.

Anders Feb 25, 2009

Dudes, go play on poker stars if you wanna see a rigged site. They are so much fucking cheating people believe me. just lost 500 dollars on Aa Qq Qq KK . i start to get so aggressive but i cant do a shit . i just wanna beat poker stars up -.-

sssydor Feb 27, 2009

This is a hand i recently saw on party poker. Small blind 600 big blind 1200. Everyone else folded so small blind goes all in with around 12000 chips to steal the big blind. Big blind has about 6000 chips calls and shows AA. Small blind shows 10 Q off suite. No bull shit, QAQ2Q
Say whatever you want, thats not random. If you ask me, Its bullshit.

zyg0tic Feb 28, 2009

You're right, no one has EVER gotten quads (especially against aces) in a live poker game before.

Wait, this means High Stakes Poker Season 3 was rigged too then?

flip310 Mar 21, 2009

Rigged or not I don't now but went u lose like I have on line (ex) just played 10 double or nothing tables and lost all of them. The part i loved was 8 times out in 6th and i wasnt the shorter stacks. I seem to lose to a 2 outer 8 times inrow all on the river. The other 2 times I lost to runner runner to go out in 7th. That was just today. The other day dont like but play somr big tourns were after 6 hours and 7th hours I was never out of top 5 in the tourns teaching some friends how to play. the first tourn I was in 3rd with hand to hand play push in BB with KK button min rr and i push allin he was 6th in tourn player repush me allin for 425 more lol and his 10-4 flopped a boat . I bubbled next hand with 10-4 didnt have chip 4 my LB my friends were like WTF, and so was I. Hay all cool in 1st in other tourn and after 5 hours of play was killing it and no I didnt $ Y U ask 0-4 with AA and yes was push everytime by a smaller stack 10-2 s, J3 off, AKs ok, but 72s and out in 15 mins after being 1st every break for 5 hours 2 out of $.

flip310 Mar 21, 2009

to finish I'm a dealer and see alot and have 4 years , and an ok player but it happens just seem more online.Funny story also at the WSOP in 2008 playing the 2500 no-limit KK in BB first hand call raise flop is K 10-6 get push allin call turn is 78 and i lose to 95 off lol.In 2009 playing same event first hand in SB and get AA 3 limpers button raise to 3000 the bad play is i only call, everyone folds flop is A73 rainbow. I check button moves allin I call turn is a 8 river a 9 button turns over 10-6s (str). 5000 in 2 tourns and out in1 hand in both lol. the good thing is u will see me playing 500,or 1000 set& goes and make aliving every year just playing them gl all and if best hand won evrytime would we keep playing? I think not

zyg0tic Mar 24, 2009

so, are you saying the WSOP is rigged too? I don't get it?

One thing I don't understand about people who keep saying online poker is rigged. How does the software choose who to rig against? I mean, I know a lot of people who consistently win online, none of them have any hacks or cheats. Is the software randomly choosing certain players to permanently hold over? Random doomswitches?... since that makes a whole lot of sense (that was sarcasm).

chiperados Mar 25, 2009

I have been playing poker for some years now and in the early days it was a lot more save.
This has changed during the years, a lot of people woking together and the ring tables are rigged for sure. I have lost several times on the river with an 5% (60 times in 85 plays) possibility for my opponent. Of course this can happen when you are on a bad streak.

I did the math and started making notes on my laptop. The people who are low stacked, have 75 % moe change to be defeated by a big stack. And i have seen it all, AA against 44. Flop AJ3 Turn and river 44. This is just an example, not only in the hands i have played. I have watched, just for fun and statistics, as an outsider a lot of ringgames. It keeps the low stack investing in his/her money.
If you loose you want to win back your money, just like in the casino and stocks.
Pokersites use this knowledge in their advantage.

If you want to play online, i would suggest to play S&G and tournaments. Your investment in your money is a lot more looking on the bright side

It is a sick but but sad truth.

Chiperados Mar 25, 2009

BTW, the pokersite i am refering to is Pokerstars. I have played on Patypoker, Full Tilt and PS. PS is the only site, if you go allin, that does not show your opponents hand.

You get to see it when all cards are turned. If Pokerstars wants to get rid of a rigged site, show the cards when you go allin. In live and other online games this is normal.

Then the endless discussion will be closed, for my part.

Sean Lind Mar 26, 2009

PokerStars is modeled after live poker, where a player may choose not to show his hand at showdown.

Hands are shown in order of who must open first, if the winning hand is shown, the losing players may choose to muck and not show their cards.

You can still see your opponents cards in the hand history, the cards are not hidden there, only on the table.

chiperados Mar 27, 2009

Hi Sean,

This feature is the same as in all the other sites, but the difference is the allin.
If you go allin on PS you will see your opponents hand after the river card. Please comment, but read first.

Sean Lind Mar 27, 2009

Like I said, PokerStars models their software after live poker. In many live games players don't show their hands until after the river.

End result is the same, just more sweating the stars way.

George Apr 17, 2009

For those who really feel that online poker isn't rigged (in that an unnaturally high number of "big bet" hands come up and Pokerstars SnG games favor the big stack) I have one word - NAIVE.

Noah Nuttall May 1, 2009

I agree with all comments stating that online poker is rigged, the sites are just computer programs which can be amended at will to maximise profit for the peolple who run them, if they can they will, and they can so they will, its as simple as that. I don't pretend to know exactly how its done but it seems to me that encouraging players to bet large and often by showing them unlikely hands winning a lot of the time would be one way to increase the rake. And i have played on about 15 different sites and have ALWAYS won to begin with before continual BB's have sent me on my way this may be a way to increase new traffic to the site as you will tell all your friends and family about this site you win on within the first two weeks then after your P.R job is done for the site you start to lose and most people will not tell anyone about the losses. Millions of people all having the same experiences can't all be wrong and i will never play online again....Apart from every now and then.

Brando May 5, 2009

It is possible for any of us to use statistical analysis to prove or disprove the theory that online poker is rigged without actually having access to the random number generators. The one situation that can be analyzed without such access is the all-in situation where there are cards still remaining to be dealt to the board. This is the one and only situation in poker where you can calculate a predicted result and then after making that calculation, pure chance is the ONLY FACTOR that determines the actual result. All other situations involve player decisions and thus cannot be analyzed. What you do is every time 2 players go all in, you calculate the odds of each player winning at the time they went all in and compare those with the actual results of the hand. The more hands you analyze, the smaller the difference should be between the average of the predicted results and the average of the actual results. There are 2 things that can be analyzed using this method - whether or not the cards are rigged to favor the favorite hand or the underdog hand, and whether or not the cards are rigged to favor the large or the short chip stack. I have some background in statistical analysis and could do a study like this, but I've been too lazy to do it. If I ever do though, I'll be analyzing bodog and will be sure to post the results on this page. I'm a little surprised that nobody else has done something like this yet. Maybe this would be a good one for MythBusters.

Noah Nuttall May 6, 2009

Since my last post i have played three times, all on paddypower all with high pairs and each time time have been cleaned out by players going all-in when chasing a flush twice or when on an inside straight once, the fact that i have bet after the flop each time half the value of the pot would be enough you would think to discourage these players from calling as there chance's are 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 but no they have ploughed all their money in and won. The only reason they would play like this is if they knew what cards were coming next, sure a call would be stupid enough but then you get to see your turn card for 5 dollars rather than 30. Online poker is rigged end of story, when i lose its like this all the time, if it played to the percentages i would be $5000 dollars up not $1000 down i play well and get beat by `idiots` in scenarios like the above every time just like everybody it seems by the amount of identical stories i read. That's it now no more, shame really because it's a fun game when its not a scam.

Noah Nuttall May 7, 2009

Brando, most sites if not all show the % your hand has of winning when you get into an all-in situation and cards in play are made visible. The amount of times a player with a 5% or lower chance of winning gets their card is beyond a joke, honestly its not uncommon for it to be every other hand especially when not many hands are getting past the pre flop these being hands that don't earn the site any rake. I wanted to think on-line poker was legit, now i just feel like an f-ing idiot for not going with my gut instinct years ago. It has to be rigged because it can be rigged. And don't think gaming commisions that are supposed to regulate them can or even try to, if they did shut down the gambling industry their out of a job.

ian post May 15, 2009

ok,you say online poker isnt rigged.ive been playing at bodog for about 18 months.you tell me how it is that every time i go allin with the nuts someone hits a 1 or 2 outer to beat me but i never get my outs against other people unless its for very small stakes.Ive flopped quads 3 times on this site and have lost all 3 hands with people hitting higher quads on the turn and river or a straight flush!Ive gone allin I dont know how many times playing omaha with the nuts and someone hits 1 outers against me on the river with hands nobody would play for a nickle never mind allin for 100 dollars.This site uses bots and bodog house players im sure.Im sure that he people who work for bodog are either playing the tables and can see all the cards or thier friends are playing and they are telling them what the hands are.Stay away from bodogpoker unless you want your money stolen.Last hand i played playing omaha i had 50 dollars and i had a pair of queens and a pair of tens in my hand.this guy kept raising and reraising me preflop until we had about 15 dollars each in the pot.the flop came 10,6,2 so i flopped the top set and the cards were all different suits.the guy goes allin and i call.the turn was a 9 and the river was a 4 which gave him an inside straight to the 6 but he had nothing in his hand.after the hand was over the other players were chatting and 2 of them had 4s in thier hands so he hit the case 4 for the inside straight.This site is as dirty as they come so stay away.i could give you example after example of these things that have happened to me but i would b writting for days.take my word for it this site is rotten.

John May 15, 2009

I know what your saying Ian.Ive been playing there about as long as you have and let me tell you you hit the nail right on the head.Cheatdog is so fixed its ridiculas.I know alot of the players are really cheatdog bots and houseplayers.Ive lost with 4 aces playing holdem when someone turned and rivered a royal straight flush.The crazy thing is they had nothing on the flop except the chance to turn and river a straight or flush and I flopped quads.This person went allin for 100 dollars on the flop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!My screen name is john61 at bodog and ill be the first to tell you how fixed cheatdog is.

Joe May 18, 2009

I play a lot of poker. As much as I can which can be 3 or 4 nights per week. In addition I play online.

In 2009 I have had 4 losing nights at live poker. Just 4. It's been a good year so far :-)

Online I think I've had about just 4 winning sessions out of a 100 or so!

Fortunately I play much smaller online than in live poker so it's not hurt me BUT I can't explain the discrepancy. Either when I sit down in front of my computer to play poker I suddenly lose all of my skills or the players online are much better or it's simply rigged. Well I know that the players are not that much better (would have to be 100 times better right? not possible is it?) online than the guys I play with live.

I tried a new site over the last few days. Full Tilt Poker. I've had AA so many times... won the blinds a few times but every other time it's headsup allin before the flop and I lose my stack. So if it's not rigged does anyone have a reasonable explanation? I've read through everything on this page and I believe that it's all corrupt. I don't believe in the integrity of any online poker site anymore so I won't be giving them any more of my money.

Thanks for reading my post.

John May 24, 2009

I had a similar problem with paddypowerpoker deciding whther it was rigged or not but one hand sorted it for me. Had pocket acesin big blind and as small blind called me, I raised and he called again. Flop came A86 and small blind went all in and I called. Small blind had 8 2 at this time. Turn came 8 and river came 8 so he won that way. Now if that isn't rigged, I don't know what is???

Brando Jun 1, 2009

Well I kept track of all of my all-ins on bodog over the past week or so. 27 times I went all in and was called. I was a 59 percent favorite, on average, meaning I was getting my chips in at the right time. How many times did I win? 9 out of 27, or 33 percent of the time, no ties. Now, I know thats a small sample size, but certainly doesn't look good.

2 of the times I had the nut straight on the turn and went all in. Guy called with set and board paired on river both times. Another time I had A-high nut flush on the turn, guy calls with set and hits FH. So I was 0-3 with nut straight or nut flush pre-river. Quite a few of the other hands were like me with AJ vs Q10 - I lost nearly every single one of those. Strangely enough I won most of the coin flips (pair vs over cards) but lost miserably when I was 60 to 80 percent favorite. Oh and then my final all-in - KQ vs KJ, guy catches straight around his Jack. Knocked me out on the bubble of a big tourney.

And while this is the first time I've kept close track of the exact numbers, this is nothing new. Its been that way ever since I joined in 2004. If I'm on average a 59 percent favorite, it stands to reason that I should win at least CLOSE to 59 percent of the time. 33 percent of the time suggests rigged. I'd like to do more analysis but I don't think I can afford it anymore.

Nik Jul 8, 2009

Online poker is a bunch of crooks. Who regulates them? Indians in CA where the servers are. They have a finacial interest in the site so they can't regulate them. Give me a break these sites steal us blind and operate without restraints. Nobody goes near the servers for good reason. Poker should be played live. Not online.

john Jul 9, 2009

Most online poker sites, like Full Tilt, the Cake network, Ongame etc. do use a bit of cheating.
If online poker is totally random, beginning bad players would sit down, lose their entire bankroll within the hour, maybe they'll reload a few times, but they'd lose it fast, and then never return to the site.

The sites deal the hole cards for all players and the board cards at the start of each hand. Occasionally the table will check who will be the winner with those cards, and if it's someone who is winning a lot today it'll swap the hole cards with someone who is losing. This is all before the cards are shown to the player. Because it's an actual deal, swapping the hole cards of two players to make the winner lose this game won't show up when people run statistics on which cards are dealt. It could just as well see that JJ will win the hand, and decide to swap that with someone else's AK because he will lose to the 3rd J on the turn.

Also, occasionally the table will deal an "action hand", this is a hand where some players get great cards like AA, AK, QJsuited, JJ and where the board on the flop has eg. a KT7 giving some players 1 or 2 pair, and then the river is another T giving the guy that went along with KT the pot..

Action hands are usually dealt in tournaments just before the tournament reaches the 'in the money' stage, called the bubble. The idea is to get rid of regular players faster, because they know they'll just accept the bad luck and sign up for the next tournament, spending money for the entry fee faster.

The whole idea is that if winners win too fast and losers go broke too fast, not enough rake is generated. By making the players that win more play a deliberate losing hand once in a while, the amount of money between the players is equalized again. This means everyone keeps playing, which means the sites make more money from generating a lot more rake.

zyg0tic Jul 9, 2009

that might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

I don't know what amazes me more, the fact that people like you sit down and think this stuff up (you probably hashed it out at dennys with a crew of friends after getting bad beat), or the fact that people actually believe it.

Fulltilt is owned, created and run by Howard Lederer. He's a poker player. All of his poker player friends are pros on the site.

These guys win more than anyone... so you're saying he spent large sums of money to create software to make his friends lose?

Do you realize that someone has to write this software? If you know nothing about computers, you won't understand how in-depth that software has to be, and the amount of resources it would take to run it.

One person wouldn't have been able to create it, it would have required a team. Since every poker site in the world wouldn't have hired the same team, we're talking probably around a hundred people, all of whom who have never spoken a word of your crazy idea to anyone.

People aren't that good at keeping secrets, especially when the secret would look great on their resume.

This theory is garbage, nothing more.

tony Jul 20, 2009

I HAVE BEEN PLAYING AT PACIFIC POKER 4 FOUR YEARS AND I AM TOTALLY CONVINCED ALL SITES ARE RIGGED, THEY ARE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE WHO CAN YOU GO TO WITH YOUR SUSPICIONS THERE ABOVE THE LAW, ALL ANYONE EVER TELLS YOU IS DONT PLAY ONLINE THAT DOES NOT STOP THE CORRUPTION THAT IS OBVIOUS TO MOST PLAYERS, OVER THE LAST SIX MONTHS OF PLAYING I HAVE NEVER SEEN SO MANY FULL HOUSES FLUSHES AND STRAIGHTS THESE OCCUR IN 75% OF HANDS THAT GOES BEYOND PROBABILITY THESE ARE STAGED HANDS TO GET PEOPLE INVOLVED AND THE FLOP TURN AND RIVER ARE DECIDED BY WHO IS LEFT IN THE HAND AND THEIR STARTING CARDS,.I GAVE UP PLAYING RECENTLY BECAUSE EVEN WHEN I HAD A MASSIVE HAND ON THE TURN WOULD ONLY GET PAID IF I SLOW PLAYED IT IF I RAISED BIG AND WAS CALLED WOULD SUCK OUT 9 OUT OF 10 HANDS AGAIN THIS GOES AGAINST PROBABILITY, BECAUSE WHAT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THESE SITES DONT PLAY UNDER MATHMATICAL PROBABILITIES ETC BUT CAN PULL ANY CARD IT WANTS TO, ANYONE WHO DISAGREES PLEASETAKE NOTE OF THE TIMING OF THE RIVER CARD HOW THERE IS A TIMING LAPSE FOR IT TO APPEAR IN CERTAIN SITUATION WHEN YOU HAVE BET BIG AND GET SUCKED OUT ANYONE WHO DOESNT AGREE KEEP PLAYING THESE SITES SOONER OR LATER YOUR FAITH WILL SUBSIDE AND HOPEFULLY THESE SITES EXPOSED AS THEY WILL ONE DAY WHEN SOMEBODY FROM INSIDE THESE COPRPORATIONS FEELS SAFE ENOUGH TO SQUEAL..........................

noah nuttall Aug 15, 2009

The main point is that if bots are being used or players colluding the sites don't care because they still profit and this cannot be discounted as paranoia the game is fundamentally flawed. Message to all stand alone honest players lets leave it to the bots and the cheating collusion groups and go down the pub for a game.

noah nuttall Aug 20, 2009

I just checked out my poker name on a ratings site and i'm listed as a shark the best rating they have, so to be losing money i must be getting very unlucky repeatedly but only once i've been on a site for a month or so then every idiot makes any 1 or 2 outer they try for, that is amazingly unlucky for the same thing to happen on every site i play on or is online poker COMPLETE BULLSHIT. If you think you win because you play well you're out of your tiny mind.

Sean Lind Aug 20, 2009

Noah,

the ratings, such as "shark" have only to do with your aggression level, VPIP, C-Bet%, things like that. It has nothing to do with you being a good or bad player.

noah nuttall Aug 27, 2009

Thanks Sean for your informative post, i would still rather play against g and r fish all day long though than a table full of sharks. I am in no way a stupid player, i see them and mostly they are listed as fish but yes its not definitive.

harry Sep 22, 2009

After playing Betfair Poker for the past week ( only small stakes ) I am convinced the site IS RIGGED to make artifical good hands. I appeciate theat Poker is all random but there are just too many strong hands for it to be true and the number of hands that are split with a large pot is unbelievable. Beware Betfair Poker!!

UnHappy Harry Oct 10, 2009

I have been playing poker in one form or another for almost 40 years. When online poker came around I decided to give it a try. I did okay and it was more a release from the rigours of the day rather than a serious money making thing.

I live near a good casino so I play 5-6 times per week for an average 5-6 hours per sessions. I play more tourneys than cash as I prefer the longer deep stack games.

I am an ex-statistician (boring job) and blessed with a near photographic memory who is now retired. I had some horrendous beats online but I decided that rather than moan I would simply move away from online poker and play live.

It was always too easy for me to play online and rather than venture out into the cold I could sit in the warm and play on my PC. I realised very little had changed and that trying to trap a player when you had flopped a set was very dangerous. I would generally have 2nd or 3rd stack and find myself in the BB with 6 7 suited. There would be a min raise nearly always from 1st or 2nd stack (normally just above me by 1 place) and it would be cheap enough for me to call. Even against a big pair I was getting the odds to call. As an experienced player I always ensured I was not chasing a hand unless I hit the flop hard and was a big favourite to win. However, I started to notice a pattern developing where these hands cost me big time. I decided I should berate myself for calling with these hands and stopped doing it. I noticed better results and felt happier with my disciplined approach. I then thought again about it and realised I shouldn't have to avoid these hands as I SHOULD be calling with those pot odds.

What I couldn't handle was the beats I was getting and they were really crazy. In the 6 7 spades hand the flop came 4 7 7 rainbow. I have a set so I feel I must be safe in this one. I check hoping to get a bet from the big stack so I can check raise. Sure enough the big stack bluffs at the pot and unless he has 44 or 47 then I am in front. I am happy for the check raise and don't expect a call. As usual he re-raises me so now I am committed. Turn 9h river 3h and he shows AhKh for the flush. I was a huge favourite but once again I am out!

Then it happens again when the stack above me raises my BB and I call for the pot odds with 9J suited clubs. The flop comes 7d 8c 10c. I cannot lose this one can I?? Same thing where we end up with the chips in the middle and he shows KQ diamonds suited. You're ahead of me.....turn 9d river D. He makes a runner runner flush and I am out again.

That's was the point I started to question things so I thought that rather than moan, I would lower the limits and start to analyse the hands statically. I didn't have a big enough sample when I first complained to the said Poker Room so I then spend 3 years (on and off) collecting as many hands as I could. Because I am retired I could play plenty of hands and I also got friends to play the same type of games and let me have their hand history. In the quiet times I got a bunch of friends online and we took all 6 seats in an SnG. We always played fair, we weren't out to cheat anyone so if we found ourselves shy of one seat we just played it and recorded the hands. It was amazing to find how the flops created so much action. We played normal poker and didn't all just call. We did record the hands so all players knew the cards. The flops always enticed players with straight and flush draws and when I finish crunching the data I will be presenting it to said Poker Room.

I had a large sample to analyse now so I decided to check the normal things like dominated hands and pair versus pair. I had 9300 dominated hands and 7100 hands of pair versus pair. I didn't have all of the data collated fully so a friend ran a query on a database to get me the data. The results were a real eye opener.

Dominated hands should win circa 70% of the time but they were running at 55%??

Pair over Pair should win circa 80% but they were running at 64%

It's strange that they both sit at a low number that is relative in terms of the difference. As mentioned, I had contacted the poker room when I started out and they dismissed the small sample of just 2000 hands. Their reply was slightly different when I showed them the new data and they implemented an update???

I am not on the "rigged" side of things but I am firmly in the "flawed" side of things. I do not believe their RNG actually produces a random shuffle and this is something I put to them. Patterns were obvious and when you had a poor hand it would be 8 3 of differing suits. It was alarming how often this appeared. Another thing that seemed crazy was the preference of suits in a period of play. I thought it was just me noticing for the sake of it but I checked the data and it was true. One session it would be clubs on most of the flops while another would bring spades and so on. I deduced it was a flaw in the RNG because it would be easy for this to occur. We found that if you could spot the suit flavour of the session you could win big time. You would call with diamonds etc even if it was 7 2 because the flop would hit all diamonds. Occasionally someone would call with a high diamond draw but it was a big +ev in terms of play.

I cannot mention the poker room by name because it could get serious and I am not going to go further until I have more evidence.

To be continued........

Bentfair Oct 12, 2009

I am new to this game and have only played on one site for a very short time.

However I understand stats, chance and everything else that counts.

It doesn't take long for a smart person to realise that something is not quite right !

Its bent for sure !

Tristen Oct 15, 2009

Unhappy Harry, i have some very interesting hand histories from when i played on 'power poker' They didnt even bother being subtle about the riggage. I lost 24 out of 25 allins. in total average i was 77% ahead and the odds of losing a 1in 4 that many times in a row is astronomical. something like 1 in 70 million.

luke Oct 25, 2009

I cetainly agree with people about joining a new poker site and winning all the time for the first few weeks. I came in the top three in 15 SnGs in a row. Withdrew most of my bankroll and since have been extremely unlucky. I'm finding its been hard to play properly recently, because I have to play sooo increibly tight to stand a chance of winning. On average AAs have won me all ins 50% of the time.

I genuinely believe there will be a poker scandel within the next 5 years as more people start playing.

BTW titan is the worst site for bad beats, insane flops, turns and rivers. Get wise people!

bill Oct 26, 2009

My concern is that the web sites are using fake players to win ring game hands or win or place in tournaments to reduce the amounts of pay outs to the real players. Redirecting cards to allow legitamate players who should not otehrwise win to win hands is not as much of a concern to me as I do not see that big of a benefit to the on line casino. I have been playing on sportsbook.com and can not get comfortable what would prevent the site from doing so. Reading this site makes me even more concerned. Views?

JohnA Oct 27, 2009

Instead of insulting people, I am really curious whether there are any intentional or unintentional biases in the software that cause so many people to think poker is rigged.

Before I begin, let me say my name is "Choirdrunk" on Full Tilt and if you look at my sharkscope numbers you'll see I'm one of the most profitable plo8 sng players on Full Tilt and, on a different name, on Pokerstars. I have had other names on other sites and I have always been profitable. I have no axe to grind.

I am suspect of the argument that the (main) sites (e.g., PS, FTP, Party) are "rigged" for these reasons:

1. They all have enormous client bases and have no rationale incentive to "cheat" (either by BOTs or through "favoring"). It would be killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

2. The number of people required to keep a secret like this seems unfathomably high. Programmers, third party analyzers, owners. One respected guy talks and it's billions in net worth down the drain.

3. In my experience, better players win. Also in my experience, people are irrationally optimistic about how good they are.

Here is why I think people believe cheating is occuring:

1. You are playing very good people. You're playing against a self-selected group of poker players. These are not like the guys at your home game (yes, yes, I'm sure your home game is amazing ...). This self selcted group is more likely than regular folks to beat you.

2. Emotional Amplification of negative occurrences. You're playing a TON of hands. I usually 4 table and occasionally 10 table. The vast majority of the hands I play are emotionally irrelevant. The ones I remember, are deep in tournaments or sits and are emotionally amplified experiences. Especially if I lose (because of a diminishing marginal utility curve present in most people). Emotional amplification distorts perception.

All that being said, some of the patterns discussed here (e.g., bigger stacks winning in tournaments disproportionate to what win percentage their cards on PokerStars) is something I can't help but notice too. I *hope* these anamolies are explained by the emotional amplification hypothesis (i.e., if a big stack loses, oh well, there goes a few chips; if a small stack loses, he's out) and raw probability (23 vs AK is still 30/70).

The potential flaw that concerns me the most is whether probabilities are pre-determined. For example, AA(low) is supposed to win a fair amount of the time in plo8. Fair enough. But if the flop comes out Q-T-8 and a guy has top two, I've seen that AA catch up more than probability would suggest should occur. I'm worried the odds used of a hand winning, are pre-set before the flop and new information (e.g., a flop) is irrelevant to the final tally.

Even this error though, which I truly believe and have adapted my play to encompass, would be more sloppy programming than malicious intent.

Overall, the argument for sites being rigged seems weak. I'm open to argument and new information, but most of the time it's just some guy using anecdotes about bad beats he, personally, undertook. For a lot of people, complaining about "site rigging" is the new way to bitch about bad beats without bitching about bad beats.

Unhappy harry Nov 4, 2009

Well I have just witnessed the craziest run of hands I have EVER seen in 40 years.

Sat at on online table and thought I had to be dreaming.

I watched one player have this run of hands

1. AA
2. AK
3. QQ
4. AA
5. AA
6. AK
7. AA
8. 99
9. QQ
10. AA

This was on Betfair poker and the guy just couldn't believe it hence him showing his hands. To make it even more stupid he then had 7 2 versus AA and flopped quads. Once again this is just too hilarious to be true and shows that "random" is not happening. After just 15 hands there were only 2 players left...me and this guy and it was simply because I had rubbish and had to fold each time

This morning I played a D2N on Betfair Poker.

In the first 9 hands we had

AA v KK
AA v 88
QQ v KK
JJ v JJ (guy won with a heart flush)
AK v AK
AA v 33 - the 3s won
AA v 88 - the 8s won with a straight

This crazy run of hands continued and I was in 4th place when I had AA. I made a raise fromt the cut off and was re-raised by the BB. I moved in and despite this guy having plenty of chips to fold he called with Q 4 os!!! He hit trip 4s

The RNG cannot be correct as this just keeps happening.

Unhappy harry Nov 6, 2009

I must be a a sucker for punishment!

I played bentfair again and this time I played a MTT with 160 players. I could not believe how bad my run of cards was and I had junk all the way with 9 3, 7 2, 9 4 etc etc. I checked the stats and my suspicions were confirmed when I found I had managed to play just 2 hands in 82 hands dealt. The table was mental and you couldn't even get a cheap flop with suited connectors as any small raise or limp was met by all in with total junk and they managed to hit miracle cards.

After 162 hands I played just 4 hands which I managed to win by hitting flops. The on hand 173 I was BB and it folded to the button who made a small raise. The SB called and I made a big raise with AJ suited, the best hand I ever received in all that time. Button folded and SB who was massive chip leader moved in. I was committed to call and couldn;t believe my luck when he showed AA for the 9th time in about 20 hands! I was out with a small payout for 5th place.

As mentioned before I have played live poker for days on end in long tournaments and I have NEVER witnessed anything like I see on Bentfair every day at every table.

Unhappy Harry Nov 11, 2009

I have been recording hands to see if I can make some sense of the rather strange hands that are constantly dealt.

I sat in an MTT and was not dealt a single Ace for 73 hands. In that run of hands I also received no pocket pairs and only 7 paint cards.

I decided to check the data for a few days on Bentfair and I noticed what appeared to be a trend

I had a run of a single card that always landed in the hole. For example I would get a 6 in every hand so I would get 62 64 65 67 68 69 and 6T. I would not get the 66 and not get a paint card. This happened on 37 consecutive hands and then the sequence was broken by 83. It then started again and I had a running sequence of 26 and then it was broken by 74.

I gave up because I couldn't catch a card. The other players were hitting AA KK QQ AK and other PPs (not all of them).

The next day I returned and this time it was 9 accompanied by a card 2-T but no PP. It's as if the RNG sets the first "supposed random card" and it sticks on the same number as if their is a bug in the software and it sticks on the first card.

I contacted the support guys and they told me this was not possible, I must be mistaken. I sent the hand histories to them and they replied saying they were not from their site. I told them to check the logs and they then accepted them.

The next day they updated their software and now this has stopped; until the next bug is found in their RNG.

No apology, no thank you and no acknowledgement!!!

Unhappy Harry Nov 11, 2009

It must just be me, I am so angry and frustrated so I apologise for venting.

AK and a flop of A 2 K rainbow. There's a attempt at a bluff so I raise the bluff and the guy moved in. He showed A 4 diamonds and hit runner runner diamonds!!

KK and so i raise from MP to be put all in by the same guy and who showed KJ os. he made a straight on the flop...goodnight!

Join another table...

Deal for the button and I get an Ace with another player. I know I will not get the button and sure enough it goes to the other Ace and I get the BB and K 7 hearts. I decide to proceed with the free flop and the board came down 7 7 K...at last a change of luck!! SB checked and so did I, there was a bet from the button and the SB moved in. I called as did the button. They showed KQ and 9 9 respectively. Turn came a 9 and river came a 9 so my quads are beaten. Another cold deck!

About 20 minutes later of suffering with awful hands I find myself with a free flop in the BB with a hand of T 5. The flop came TT5 and I find UTG moving in after I checked. The button re-raised !!! I had to call and they showed QT and QQ turn was a 3 and the river was the case Q!!!!! Another cold deck!!!

Then once again about 30 minutes later I am dealt QJ suited on the button so I make a raise as it is me and the blinds left. The SB called and the BB folded. We are presented with a flop A J J. I just hope he has an Ace and makes a bet at the pot. He moved in which was an instacall for me. He showed QQ! The turn is a K and the river is a Q. Once again the case Q hits the board and I lose to the 1 outer!!

Yes, I ws lucky to hit the flop so hard but this just keeps happening to me.

I just lost again with KK when the chip leader made a bluff pre-flop. I re-raised him and with blinds of 200/100 it was another 2900 for him to call from his stack of 3800. he had bet 400 in an attempt to steal the blinds. There was no deliberation, he made an instacall to show K 7 os !!!!

He made a straight!!!

I think I should return to the site with the dodgy RNG!!

Bentfair Nov 18, 2009

Yes I agree with everything you have stated above Harry.

I have encountered everything that you have detailed.

I also have been on the flip side of the scam, and have won hands for long periods that border on ridiculous to the point that I apologise to the other players at the table. Honestly you could go all in with 72o with full confidence

My theory is that over a period of time, it equals itself out.

The disapointment of losing to what we believe must be a rigged game, along with the euphoria of hitting it big when it happens just keeps the average sucker going back for more. Its called addiction. Eventually your bankrole diminishes into the hosts account, otherwise known as the rake.

The series of wins usually comes first, maybe after you have just registered to the site. Be prepared then for the big turnaround where what ever you play will get beat. Its not even subtle.

I would be interested to here from anybody who genuinely comes out on top over a long period of time on one site.

Its Bent for sure !